[dasil003]

I agree there are systemic issues of racism keeping blacks and latinos away from open source, but those issues have nothing to do with open-source per se. The free time issue is a big one. Access to computers at home in early childhood is probably even bigger. Consider Bill Gates getting computer access as a 13 year old in 1968, this was an incredible leg up, something which gradually broadened but when I was a kid in the 80s I was still relatively privileged to have access. These days the financial barriers are extremely low as you can get started programming on the cheapest netbook, and free wi-fi abounds.

These days I think getting into open source is great advice for minorities, and I think they will find it to be as close a meritocracy and "color-blind" environment as they will find in America today. That said, it is an inherently harsh environment to learn where there is a pretty low tolerance for beginners, and it could be quite discouraging for someone just getting their feet wet in programming. Also, if it's pitched heavily as a gateway to a lucrative career by parents and authorities a lot of people are going to be pushed into it who might not have the intrinsic interest to succeed in the pedantic world of telling a computer exactly what to do.

That said, one has to imagine that the number of blacks and latinos with a very strong potential to be good programmers is probably severely under-represented in industry as well as open source simply due to lack of early opportunity and privilege.

[knowtheory]

I think they will find it to be as close a meritocracy and "color-blind" environment as they will find in America today

In this thread: Lies open source developers tell themselves.

It's a sad joke Rubyconf attendees yearly confuse @bryanl and @daksis with each other, but it's happened at every Rubyconf i've been too (which is granted 3 but it's there).

Open Source is a community, and communities are about who you know, and how you interact with them. Open Source communities do nothing to fix or address the structural or cultural elements of racism.

Success in open source is like success in anything else. It's about building something that other people care about, and promoting yourself and your work to others (or having someone else promote it for you). That last component is entirely socio-cultural. There is no meritocratic component to it.

It's again worth noting that the modern etymology of the term 'meritocracy' was satire against the concept we identify it with: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meritocracy#Etymology

Being good at what you do and working hard is necessary but not sufficient to being recognized and successful.

[dasil003]

You and goggles99 are coming at me from opposite ends of the racist ideologue spectrum, whereas my view is more nuanced.

Did I saw open-source was a panacea? No, I did not. I just said it was better than most other power structures in America. Why? Because code talks. Just because most engineers dislike political correctness and aren't doing anything to right structural inequities permeating our society doesn't mean they are racist. If they are passively supporting racist structures just by being white and operating within them, okay, that's a minor strike against them and feel free to slather on the white guilt, but it pales in comparison to the typical old boys club operations of most power structures in America.

Obviously open source has cliques and insiders as well, but that's based on a history of actual work and participation. I think the idea that a black man coming and jumping into open source is going to be at a disadvantage because of his race is not credible.

[gaius]

Who and who, and how is it illustrative? For the non-rubyists.

[theorique]

Two prominent Rubyists who happen to be simultaneously black.

https://twitter.com/bryanl

https://twitter.com/daksis

[smoyer]

I hope they continue being simultaneous for a long time then ... Not being in the Ruby community, I've never seen either of them but I'd love to tell them "live long and prosper".

One caveat though ... I'm horrible with names and faces. This includes plenty of white people who happen to look alike. Fortunately I'm to the point where I can pick my wife and kids out of a crowd. Is this a common affliction among people who pursue software?

[theorique]

:) the "simultaneous" thing was me being cheeky.

But on a more serious note, I can see where being "the black guy" would get tiresome fast. Or being mistaken for "the other black guy". Don't know if that would cause a person to quit the OSS world, but it's probably not a highlight.

[smoyer]

" The free time issue is a big one."

I have four kids, a career in software (after almost 20 years that included hardware design), a couple of outside activities but the reality is that software is (and has been) my hobby. And I pursue my hobby instead of watching television, I read software books more frequently than fiction.

You could probably say my life isn't very balanced, but my kids and wife haven't complained that I don't make time for them. It's a matter of sleeping less and not filling my time with other hobbies. I'd hate to call this racism (not that racism doesn't exist) when it might just be cultural differences?

I realize that there are definite economic barriers to even having time for a hobby, and that put having a suitable computer out-of-reach, so I think I'd rather see this particular issue framed as one of SES. Racism, as well as a variety of other factors can definitely affect SES ... and there's often continuity within a family.

So what can we do? Since it's the season of giving, I'll start with an offer. If you believe you're being kept out of the software field, you're truly passionate about software as a career (not just because the pay tends to be good) and if you're in the Central Pennsylvania area, please contact me via the e-mail in my profile. I'll do what I can to get you connected into a community and set up with a used computer that should get you started.

[goggles99]

>I agree there are systemic issues of racism keeping blacks and latinos away from open source, but those issues have nothing to do with open-source per se. The free time issue is a big one. Access to computers at home in early childhood is probably even bigger.

You have been watching too much MSNBC. Young Blacks and Latinos watch 3-4 hours of television per day and play 2+ hours of video games. There goes your free time belief.

Access to computers and internet? Poor blacks compared to poor whites have the same resources to computers yet the poor whites become coders in the same percentages as the general population.

You are 0 for 2.

[michalu]

I am white, but my father watched TV most of his time and never worked on anything and growing up in such environment so did I. If you grow up in an short-term gratification environment it's much harder to stay with problems long enough to solve them and thus you end up giving up on many hobbies sooner. My father was probably just lazy or resigned due to constant worrying about economic situation but I can imagine that as an immigrant parent with lower job opportunities, language skills and no existing parents to support you, you're less likely to end up with a job you love and you worry about other things than hobbies in spare time. This affects the environment your kids grow up. I am not from US but I can imagine the parents of majority of those kids were in much different situation to others, because (I live abroad) I know that when I was in my home country I would aways had a place to go (my parents) and a support from them and thus more time to look out for a job I like and more support with the kids from them so I could raise kids in much different environment.

[knowitall]

That may be so, but then it wouldn't be the fault of discrimination.

[michalu]

Sure, nor am I saying it is.

[dasil003]

I don't watch TV and I said a lot more than two things you narrowly dismissed with a few convenient and cherry-picked "facts" Mr. Holier-than-thou.

If you don't think poor people (not ones still living under their parents roofs) have less time than middle class people then you have never been poor.

[lttlrck]

So what is your take on it?

[primelens]

Sources please.

[true_religion]

Well his arguments are based on past experience, not current day trends.