[gwern]

> This is the same bull*t that is thrown at Castro, Che Guevara, and many others.

Bullshit? Should we infer that you think Castro's Cuba was a smashing success and has totally justified all the bad things he and his followers did?

[tcdent]

Care to elaborate on "all of the bad things"? If there's anything to take away from this discussion on Mandela, it's that there are a lot of misunderstandings about what actually happened, especially if you are primarily informed by American media.

[noarchy]

"all of the bad things" seem to continue:

Cuba remains the only country in Latin America that represses virtually all forms of political dissent. The government of Raúl Castro continues to enforce political conformity using short-term detentions, beatings, public acts of repudiation, travel restrictions, and forced exile. Although the Cuban government released dozens of political prisoners on the condition that they leave the country, the government continues to sentence dissidents in closed, summary trials. The government has also relied increasingly upon arbitrary arrests and short-term detentions to restrict the basic rights of its critics, including the right to assemble and move freely.

http://www.hrw.org/americas/cuba

Another source for info, if you don't like HRW: http://www.amnesty.org/en/region/cuba

[thiagoharry]

As a third world inhabitant who really saw all the "wonders" of capitalism here, I really don't consider Cuba a bad place to live. Travel restriction? We also have this here because only rich people have money to travel. "Move freely"? We have this only to people who can afford this. Beatings, detentions? We also have these things for people who lives in slums. I already talked with cuban people and people who really traveled to Cuba and the place really isn't the hell described by the american media.

The cuban government pursuit dissidents? How difficult is to identify legitimate dissidents from spies and people financed by enemy nations in a country so attacked by hostile powers? A country that suffers from sabotage, embargo and terrorism with a little help from the CIA (like the apartheid).

From my perspective I can relate Mandela's struggle with Fidel and Che's struggle. A lot of african countries can thanks Cuba for their independence. 300 000 cuban soldiers were sent by Castro to fight for the independence of african countries and 10 000 died there. To ilustrate what I'm saying, this is a speech by Nelson Mandela spoken in 1991:

http://lanic.utexas.edu/project/castro/db/1991/19910726-1.ht...

[mrleinad]

How about this quote to reply to your post, and we remain on topic as well?

"Freedom is meaningless if people cannot put food in their stomachs, if they can have no shelter, if illiteracy and disease continue to dog them." - Nelson Mandela

I encourage you to read about how illiterate people were before Castro, and after Castro. Also if there was hunger, if people could afford to go to a doctor, and how unequal their society was.

[noarchy]

I don't want to get drawn into a false dichotomy. The pre-Castro period was no paradise, I'm fully aware.

[mrleinad]

There's no point in critizicing Castro unless you also acknowledge everything he changed for good, and how the United States in the name of freedom and democracy wants to undo all that. Once you put everything at the same level, then you can start analyzing what's actually best for them.

[noarchy]

>There's no point in critizicing Castro unless you also acknowledge everything he changed for good, and how the United States in the name of freedom and democracy wants to undo all that. Once you put everything at the same level, then you can start analyzing what's actually best for them.

I've never made a statement about what is "best for them". That is up to them, or at least it should be. They currently have no opportunity to decide what is best for themselves, and apparently you think this is a great deal, and we shouldn't complain about anyone living under authoritarian regimes.

[oijaf888]

Singapore is like that too but we don't seem to single them out for it do we?

[noarchy]

You're right. For North Americans, Cuba is local, and is discussed far more often. Singapore is definitely not without its issues (http://www.hrw.org/asia/singapore), and you'd be very hard pressed to find a state that doesn't abuse its power to some degree. Some are obviously worse than others.