[snrip]

F*ck apartheid, but for all I know Mandela pretty much deserved to go to jail.

Big disgrace if the CIA actively sponsored this regime, but the allegations in the article are just from one source not directly related to the affairs. All the "Who knows" and "My guess" doesn't make the case any stronger.

[dragonwriter]

> Big disgrace if the CIA actively sponsored this regime

The US was the apartheid regime's next-to-last overt ally (Israel was the last -- and proliferated nuclear weapons technology to South Africa) -- US overt support ending only late in the Reagan Administration under intense public and Congressional pressure -- and its not really the worst regime the US backed as a bulwark against Communism.

Regardless of whether the CIA was involved in supplying information for Mandela's arrest, there is no question that at the time -- and for decades after -- the US government was -- overtly, not merely potentially covertly -- backing the South Africa apartheid regime.

[dingaling]

In what form do you see that overt support?

The USA was very stringent in adhering to the progressively tighter UN arms embargoes and once the supplies from France ceased this caused SA to look towards Israel, Taiwan and Argentina for military equipment ( the latter two mainly as covert import channels, Israel as a partner ).

Occasional US arms did appear in SADF service but only as grey imports.

SA intel and SADF held a pretty dim view of CIA capabilities ( particularly in Angola ) and from what I know in public sources didn't deal much with them. Though they did supply captured Warpac equipment, once they had examined it in conjunction with the Israelis.

[lostlogin]

Was doing some reading after seeing your comment and stumbled on this State Department site. What it says was new to me (I'm not American). Here it is if anyone else is interested. http://2001-2009.state.gov/r/pa/ho/time/pcw/98678.htm

[yequalsx]

Do you believe his jailors deserved to go to jail? What about his prosecutors? The results of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission clearly indicate evilness of the apartheid regime and those in control of it. That Mandela's response when gaining power was not one of retribution, revenge, and bloodshed clearly indicates in my mind that his was a principled, moral mind and that he clearly did not deserve to go to jail.

[sigzero]

Weren't like 70K white people slaughtered while he was president?

[scarmig]

It's unclear what you mean by that, but to the extent that it implies ANC reprisals or a race war, it's ridiculous.

[powertower]

Good luck with the pretending that whites aren't targeted out of hate in South Africa.

http://www.genocidewatch.org/southafrica.html

http://www.thetruthaboutsouthafrica.com/p/white-genocide-in-...

[scarmig]

I figured the 70k number came from crime counts or something similar, since it's easy to build up non-negligible numbers pretty easily when 50 people are murdered in your country per day, which is the case in South Africa.

But individual crimes, even crimes partially or wholly racially motivated, do not make for a race war or genocide.

[mikebludd]

no.

[TallGuyShort]

I agree that stuff like this needs to be well-sourced, but I'm glad to see some of it getting attention. Mandela is, and rightfully so, held up as a beacon of kindness and forgiveness that we should all try to incorporate. But I think we do his legacy a disservice by not talking about all the corruption he fought, and who we really was (including the parts that make him look like, as you suggest, he "pretty much deserved to go to jail").

I've done a lot of reading on this topic myself. I would love to post some sources but I don't have my books with me at the moment. But for what it's worth (which is not much, admittedly) - let me add my endorsement as a fellow HNer that what the author talks about is plausible, and there is plenty of evidence if you care to go looking for it. I believe this is a well-accepted theory by many other South Africans, rather than a fringe conspiracy. But yes - unfortunate that the author doesn't do more to back up the claims in a verifiable way.

edit: The cover is different, but I'm pretty sure this is the book I read that did the most to back up these events: http://www.amazon.com/Inside-B-O-S-S-Africas-Secret-Police/d.... The details, as I remember them, have always been very consistently reported by the various "sources".

[jbooth]

Thought experiment:

Some other civilization (let's say the Arabs) comes to America and puts us in a system analogous to apartheid, where the groups are whites on bottom and arabs on top.

In that hypothetical, would your opinions be different?

[snrip]

In that case my opinion would go from "fck apartheid" to "fck the system analogous to apartheid". I would support the Americans in their fight against Arabs (never thought I would live to say that!). I would still not condone hurting innocent people and feel that a punushment would be justified.

[pstuart]

Of course they would. But only then.

[cglee]

So you basically lack empathy.

[pstuart]

Huh? I've got plenty to spare. I was referring to the parent.

[ilitirit]

> for all I know Mandela pretty much deserved to go to jail.

TBH, while he did break the law, I think his course of action against the state was justified. That's obviously not an excuse that will fly in court, but saying "he deserved to go to jail" is a bit disingenuous given the context.

Mandela pleaded guilty to the charges against him (sabotage of various state and military instruments). The state was looking for evidence of him having a hand in killing/hurting civilians because they wanted to hang him. They couldn't find any, so they settled on life imprisonment.

[snrip]

Yeah, I should not have let that remark fly without further elaboration: For all I know mr. Mandela was directly connected to bombings that made innocent victims, such as the Church Street bombing. In my book that warrents jail sentence.

I am not too sure how to feel about an institution of the apartheids regime being the judge to this. Right and wrong get mixed up in my head.

For the fact that he and others resisted this regime, they deserve the praise they are getting. Sure some laws have been broken, but who made and interpreted these laws? That is not why I was saying he deserved punishment. It is innocent victims that make the difference. I was definitely not clear on that.

Btw I just did some reading up on the ANC bombings and it turns out I might be all wrong and just made an ass out of myself.

[ilitirit]

> For all I know mr. Mandela was directly connected to bombings that made innocent victims, such as the Church Street bombing.

FYI, he was not connected to that bombing. He was in prison at the time and only heard about it through the news and visitors. Some websites claim that he stated in his autobiography that he personally approved of the bombings. This is obviously false. His autobiography is available on the net for everyone to read.

[the_af]

Agreed.

"Deserve" has little to do with going to jail. Going to jail is a legal matter. A moral man committing a moral act that happens to break an immoral law will go to jail according to that law, but does he "deserve" it?

[pjc50]

Some background from Mandela himself: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/apr/23/nelsonmandela

It's important to note the date of this speech at his trial, April 20 1964, _before_ the passing of the US civil rights act (July 2 the same year); so at this time parts of the US had apartheit-like conditions.

[munificent]

It does a disservice to the facts of apartheid to compare the US in 1964 to SA at the same time. While, yes, there were many many racial problems in the US, there were no race-based federal laws. The Civil Rights Act was passed to prohibit racial laws at the state level. Meanwhile, in South Africa:

All citizens had to carry a card identifying their race. (Population Registration Act)

It was specifically legally allowed to segregate public facilities (parks, hospitals, transportation, etc.). In addition, facilities were specifically allowed to be unequal for different races or even non-existent. (Reservation of Separate Amenities Act)

Property was legally divided by race and you could only live in areas alloted to your race. (Group Areas Act)

Federal law controlled which jobs you were allowed to hold based on your race. High skill jobs were reserved for whites and blacks were prohibited from holding them. (Mines and Works Act, Native Building Workers Act)

Blacks were legally prohibited from striking or forming unions. Whites had no such restriction. (Native Labour (Settlement of Disputes) Act, Industrial Conciliation Act)

Schools were legally segregated by race, which led (either intentionally or not) to radically inferior schooling for blacks. In the 70s, per capita spending on black education was one-tenth of the spending on white. (Bantu Education Act, Extension of University Education Act et. al.)

It was a federal crime, punishable by up to five years in prison to engage in inter-racial sex involving a white person. Inter-racial marriage was likewise outlawed. (Immorality Act, Prohibition of Mixed Marriages Act)

And this is just the beginning. There were dozens of other pieces of legislation that specifically encoded race-based selection into federal law. It's astonishing how horrendous South Africa was in a time where most other developed countries were what we think of as "modern".

[lostlogin]

There is nothing modern about the way the US treated race politics in the 1960s. It was appalling and a lot worse than many other countries - South Africa being a notable exception. It still puzzles me the amount race comes up in American TV shows. They are loaded with lame race based jokes which indicates to me that all still isn't right, and how could it be when my parents' generation can remember events of the 1960s. I live in New Zealand, and it would be untrue to claim race and racism aren't a problem here, but I think that the situation is slightly better although we have appalling stats for Maori and Pacific Islanders where health, life expectancy, poverty and education are concerned. I could be wrong but it recall reading that the Maori are the worlds most imprisoned race.

[djtriptych]

The modern prison system in America is provably racist, devastating to black communities, and legal.