[dagss]

As a Norwegian this keep coming up in lunch conversations. I just bought an old used car from somebody buying a Tesla.

What we come back to is the very high sale taxes on new cars in Norway (our "rule of thumb" is that cars are close to twice as expensive in Norway as in some other countries), but that most(/all?) of those taxes are waived for electric. So the alternative to getting, e.g., a Tesla is paying almost twice as much for a "similar" BMW. Same story for lower-end cars.

Also, on the commuter high-ways leading in to Oslo, there's one lane that's reserved for bus+taxi+electric (similar to the 2+ or 3+ person-per-car lanes in California). There's a joke that there's a standing queue of Teslas in that lane now (though I don't drive there so I haven't seen how much of an exaggeration that is).

Also, electric don't pay on the toll roads, which saves you 3-4$ each time if you're living outside towns and commuting in.

[_delirium]

The electricity:petrol price ratio is also more favorable in Norway than many other countries, thanks to a combination of high petrol taxes but not too expensive electricity (due to the large hydroelectric capacity).

For example, in California, typical petrol prices are around $0.85/L ($3.20/gal), and residential electricity prices are around $0.17/kWh. So you get about 5 kWh of electricity for the cost of a liter of petrol. Meanwhile in Norway, typical petrol prices are around $2.45/L ($9.25/gal), and residential electricity prices are around $0.25/kWh. So you get about 10 kWh of electricity for the cost of a liter of petrol.

edit: Actually might be an even bigger ratio. I was getting the Norwegian retail price of $0.25/kWh from Eurostat [1], but Statistics Norway gives a price of only $0.14/kWh [2]. Which would make for nearly 18 kWh for the cost of a L of petrol, 3-4x better ratio than in California.

[1] http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/statistics_explained/index....

[2] http://www.ssb.no/en/elkraftpris

[unfasten]

For my own curiosity I completed the gasoline end of the math above. Hopefully I didn't botch any of it. If so, please correct me:

According to Wikipedia¹ the energy of gasoline is ≈11.8 kWh/kg at a density of ≈0.74 kg/l, giving us 8.7 kWh/l. For California, using the $0.85/l price, we get $0.10/kWh (rounded from $0.09770) for gasoline. Norway, at $2.45/l, gives us $0.28/kWh.

¹ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline#Energy_content

[dagss]

What this doesn't include is the efficiency of motors. Gasoline engines has an efficiency of 25-30%. Electrical cars are much more efficient (Tesla seems to quote 88% for Tesla Roadster). So while your calculation shows that you about break even, taking this into account should mean electricity is in the area of 3x cheaper in Norway (when used for powering cars).

[bborud]

I don't think it is about the fuel prices. While it is true that Norway has the highest petrol prices in the world, we have among the lowest fuel cost/income ratios in the world.

It is about getting 400+ hp at family barge prices.

(And that is okay by me. We need more people to drive electric cars so we can evolve and develop them. And Norway is a great place to do that because of the hostile climate and the even more hostile politicians and their medieval ideas of what constitutes a "road")

edit: link for reference http://www.bloomberg.com/visual-data/gas-prices/20133:Norway

[Zitrax]

About prices, I compared prices in Sweden of a new Audi A4 and a Tesla S as normally cars are much more expensive in Norway, but for Tesla it's cheaper in Norway. I have not checked any rules about taxes or such, just got the prices for the same model from audis and teslas regional web pages.

             Sweden   Norway
  Audi A4    33 269   64 843
  Tesla S    70 798   55 682

(Prices in €)

[conductor]

Are there any legal restrictions for Norwegian citizens to go and buy cars in Sweden (then drive home)?

[pi-rat]

Yes, you are required to pay import tax on the car when you bring it into the country. In the end you break about even. You could of course bring it in and avoid import, but it's high risk, sooner or later you get busted for driving and owning a car with swedish license plates as a Norwegian. (A foreigner can keep his car here for about 1 year before getting Norwegian license plates.)

[gsnedders]

No. But one would be required to pay customs duties (import tax, really) — so then one is paying the same amount as just buying it in the country.

[bjelkeman-again]

Bummer you have to pay import duty when importing from Norway to Sweden.

[alecco]

(Please don't take this in a bad way, I'm just curious and not judging)

How do people feel being a top oil exporter and doing green policies/laws internally?

[IBalic]

I am a Norwegian myself, and you just entered the big issue in the environment debate here. There are a lot of activists criticizing the fact that if we are exporting oil, it doesn't help with all the "green" measures we do. However, there are even more people thinking that it does not help anyone if we stop exporting oil, because the same amount of oil is getting burnt everyday regardless of what we do. So the only thing we will achieve by stopping to export oil, will be to "make a statement", and probably other nations will produce more polluting oil, due to a less environmental-friendly production process. We achieve a lower standard of living, and we will probably make no/small impact on the environment by stopping. I actually understand both arguments, so it is hard to take a stand.

[pi-rat]

Most Norwegians do not care that much, but there have been some small discussions and newspaper headlines lately discussing the ethics and double standard of exporting oil/gas while trying to be green. Many people just shrug and say it's better the world burn oil/gas than chinese brown coal.

And you know the old saying - don't get high on your own supply..

[ggjain]

The argument is right. But consider rebates as support or venture fund by Govt. It promote sales - sales promote more production - more production promotes more private investment and better ideas.

The cycle has started and showing good signs.

I believe, if the same support is replicated across the world, it is very much possible we may witness electric automobiles a very viable alternative within next 10 years.

[dghughes]

What about driving in the snow?

As a Canadian I can't see a Tesla being of any use in the winter, do people talk about that?

[pi-rat]

Here is a review of the Tesla during winter conditions in Norway: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZ5PqPeOPT0 (Spoiler: Pretty damn good even in harsh conditions)

[dhughes]

Interesting, he had good points about such a heavy vehicle in snow and the large amount of torque that can make for dangerous winter driving especially in a rear-wheel drive vehicle.

I had to look up what the 'cold weather spec' package is and seems to be just creature comforts not different engineering/design to increase efficiency in cold weather.

My concern is at -20C in January with a metre of snow, heater on full blast, spinning the wheels as I plow through snow and slush with aggressive studded winter tires how much will that 400km range drop? Even just warming up the interior (a common thing) in the morning and scraping off the ice off the windows before going to work in the morning. My current vehicle's mileage drops in half in the winter due to all those conditions.

[pi-rat]

Package also seems to include battery heating, probably wise as li-ion sucks in extreme cold: "The Cold Weather Package adds an upgraded heater for the battery coolant to boost range and performance in the coldest of weather, along with an "improved defrost" grille, heaters in the cowl and the windshield washer nozzles, and inside, heated seats for the second row as well."

You can do morning heating using grid power, trigger it remotely via your phone (they have an app for iphone/droid). I think you also can schedule heating ahead of time.

[dhughes]

It would be nice if there was a torque reduction feature.

A trick for manual transmission vehicles in winter when on ice is to shift into third gear to reduce the torque so the wheel don't spin, the Tesla is the insane opposite of that.

[ Come on Elon summon your inner Canadian instincts! ]

[zefhous]

Supposedly it's pretty good in the snow. The Model X will have an all-wheel drive configuration too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GS9uDJGi52A

[Pxtl]

Really? I live in Hamilton and we plough so aggressively that I don't think anything on 4 wheels is inappropriate for the snow. You barely even need snow tires here unless you're planning to drive out to cow country.

You out West? I've heard they don't salt out there, which makes all the difference.

[dhughes]

Maritimes.

It snowed today and there was about six inches of slush on the roads, no plows out. Sure they salted the snot out of the roads but the slush was crazy.

[Pxtl]

Good God, could you imagine that kind of aggressive policy here in North America? It would be political heresy.

Seriously, everybody was all for saving the world from global cataclysm until we found out it would be expensive and inconvenient.

[salient]

That sounds like a great political strategy to get people off oil. If only that were implemented in US, too.