[singular]

I have for a while thought of you as (total honesty here) a bullying cock (though talented at what you do), but this comment which is sincere, genuine and offered to someone for whom this could be greatly helpful has made me seriously reconsider. Kudos.

[typicalrunt]

Getting a bit OT here but I have to wade in...

To people that know him personally, like myself, Zed is a great guy. My guess at the problem is that his Internet persona took on its own life outside of his control, and it grew to such a bad situation that it was better to not try to feed the trolls and simply put some distance from it.

In other words, let the haters hate and be ignored, stand up for yourself when appropriate, and the good people will eventually acknowledge good deeds and fight for you.

[sharkweek]

I don't personally know Zed outside of his internet persona -- and to me it seems like he's just a guy who doesn't put up with bullshit. I have never seen a time where he's an asshole to anyone who isn't shooting first. He puts his opinions out there and sometimes those cause flame wars so if you catch him in the middle of one those on Twitter then I can definitely see where people might think he's a jerk.

His tweets are comedy gold though -- highly recommend everyone follow him -- @zedshaw

edit: case and point -- https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6806748

[davidw]

> doesn't put up with bullshit

Unless it's his own, like all the FUD he spread a number of years ago about Debian.

Even beyond that, I guess I'm just not a fan of the "it's ok to swear and be harsh to people as long as you happen to be right" approach to life.

Look at how kind and helpful someone like patio11 is, without all the vitriol.

[ericd]

Zed has to do Zed, just like Patrick does Patrick.

[niels_bom]

"case in point" :-)

[richardlblair]

TBH, when I first started following Zed on twitter I thought he was an ass, but recently something changed. Now he just seems like a normal dude who kills it.

[hoggle]

Have you ever seen him talk?

I love this video where he is debunking a lot of which is holy on HN - at BubbleConf 2012 "Peddling Luck": https://vimeo.com/53494258

[exodust]

"I'm totally an asshole"

At around 34:30 he admits he's an asshole in the context of slamming other people's work.

For him to jump all over the person above who called him a cock, well, all I can say is "pot-kettle-black, motherfucker".

"I'm busy helping people, you're busy calling me a cock".

Cry me a river. In the video he gets real busy rubbishing other people's work. Not to say he didn't have some very good, honest, refreshing points. But one needs to be able to take it if one dishes it out.

[moocowduckquack]

I'm not sure I get you, are you really complaining about motherfuckers refusing to accept cock after slamming assholes, or do I have the wrong end of the stick?

[marincounty]

He's brutally honest. I don't know why people can't be more honest. I knew 7 guys about 15 years ago who started a gaming company. It became successful. When ever they talk about their now defunct company--they all lie about how they became successful. The truth is one kid had a rich, lawyer father. The father set everything up, and completely funded the company for years. Everyone of them leaves that out of the "I want to get laid speech". It's nauseating. The ironic part of their company success story is they sold out too early, for 500K a piece. As far as I know, everyone of the 7 dudes is broke now--or just game testers. The two guys I kept in touch with thought they were going to make a fortune in the stock market with their big brains; they lost everything in 2008.

[kibibu]

It strikes me that Zed has been on the receiving end of way more bullying than he has given out (including being called a cock by you in this very post)

[singular]

"I have for a while thought of you as (total honesty here) a bullying cock"

Notice the past tense. I based that opinion on the many aggressive attacking posts by Zed (for which he is well-known), particularly the attack of Mark Pilgrim (now deleted.)

That impression may be right or it may be wrong, but for good or for bad it's one that I got, and I felt my not mentioning that or hedging it here would be intellectually dishonest.

Note what I said next:-

"but this comment which is sincere, genuine and offered to someone for whom this could be greatly helpful has made me seriously reconsider. Kudos."

Which I really meant sincerely. It was actually meant to be a genuine compliment, but it is really hard to put that across without sounding sarcastic. Ah well.

[zedshaw]

Again, rewriting history. I attacked Mark only after he refused to fix his book, despite my offer of help, and told me to go fuck myself. He'd also attacked many other people in an exactly similar way before I did. I mean, c'mon, all I did was replicate this post Mark did:

http://web.archive.org/web/20070418001022/http://diveintomar...

I didn't see you calling Mark a cock after he wrote that. And, let's not forget that when Mark did take his gear off the internet I was sympathetic and told people to not "kick a man when he's down", something I'm damn sure he wouldn't do for me.

So if you're bringing out Mark Pilgrim as your shining example of people I "bullied" you pretty much picked about the worst example ever. Mark was a dick who shit on quite a few people in his day and deserved a little bit in return. Thinking that he was some choirboy that I beat up is a very naive way to view the world, but that's what I expect from someone who builds up mythical opinions of people they've never met.

Anyway, closing this tab now. I've sent out about 60 emails helping people find work and will be looking at about 10 resumes tomorrow in the time it took you to write these little comments. You rock dude!

[singular]

I don't think it's rewriting history to say you were aggressive and attacking, I do absolutely accept that you might have been 100% in the right and justified in that.

I got the impression you were being bullying - my whole point here is that I felt I was wrong, and your kindness made me reconsider.

My little comments (indeed they are little, I make no claims otherwise) were actually genuinely and seriously meant to be complimentary while being open and direct about the impression I had.

Actually, please do ignore me and carry on helping people. These kind of arguments are a waste of time, what you're doing to help these people isn't. I admire it.

[exodust]

singular, don't worry, your post was fine. The self-confessed asshole (Peddling Luck vimeo - 34:30) overreacted due to a self-appointed discussion thread-relative moral high-ground.

"Fuck that book...fuck that bad advice, those people are lying... he/she is full of shit" etc etc. That was my first introduction to the Zed, just 5 min ago.

Then, singular comes along and says "I once thought you were a cock, but not anymore, kudos", and that gets a rage-reply from the Joker? Well, that's funny. People are hilarious!

[poseid]

By the way, someone has released an open-source Job Board project, maybe interesting to mention in this context: https://github.com/acapilleri/job_board

[w0rd-driven]

There's a difference in the two phrases: I love you, but you're fucking stupid. You're fucking stupid, but I love you.

I prefer the former to the latter. Sweeten me up then crush me with reality. A lot of people see the latter and just absolutely stop reading after "You're fucking stupid", especially people with admittedly short attention spans.

That would be the only thing I would apologize for or alter, personally. I understood the sincerity immediately but this is because I come from a long line of men that have taken the latter approach and I have to willfully ignore the negative because I know some positive exists or they wouldn't bother saying a damned word.

[gress]

The point is that you stand in judgement of Zed.

Just because you now have a positive judgement doesn't change the fact that a few hours ago you judged him to be 'a cock'.

Why shouldn't he be pissed about that, and why should he care what you think?

[jrochkind1]

Hmm, I don't think "I have for a while thought" is past tense. I'm going with 'present perfect.'

[termain]

"I thought of you as" is not the same thing as "you are a".

[tempestn]

It still makes for a pretty damned backhanded compliment.

[singular]

Understandable that it came off that way, genuinely not intended as that.

It's bloody hard to express something sincerely on the internet without sounding like you're just being sarcastic.

[tempestn]

IMO the best way to go about it in this case would have been simply to express your appreciation/admiration/whatever for his actions here, and ignore the past. That would clearly imply that you've at least somewhat adjusted your opinion, without having to explicitly bring it up.

Of course, it also wouldn't have spawned a hundred-comment sub-thread.

[Semaphor]

Why? I'd rather have someone tell me what they thought of me and that I managed to change their mind.

[tempestn]

I can understand that POV, but I expect you're in the minority. Most people in my experience respond better to "I respect you," than to "I used to think you were a cock, but now I'm reconsidering and starting to respect you."

[kunai]

Well, he did call _why a dick (which is just a no in my book), but when all is said and done I think this is irrelevant. He's giving a guy in need a hand, and I think we should all look up to Zed for it.

[hbags]

Speaking of cocks, the technical leadership at two well-funded startups systematically harassed Zed by adding him to github repos that contained nothing but ASCII cocks. I know this because they bragged about it openly, thinking it hilarious.

Zed takes a lot of abuse for little reason.

I debated naming the companies here, but they appear to be failing anyway. Probably because they hired the sort of people who find harassment hilarious.

edit: removed oblique reference to one of the companies. I don't feel like giving those firms any publicity, even if it's bad publicity.

[kstop]

Reason: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tall_poppy_syndrome

[rrouse]

For those that don't know what hbags is referring to:

https://github.com/moron5/dongml

Apparently the twitter account referenced on moron5.com is still active and is passively still trying to be a dick

https://twitter.com/elotente

[aaronem]

Who let the 4chan kids out of their cages?

Edit: No, seriously, that "DongML" stuff is like something 4chan's technology board might aspire to, if they could put down their bongs and endless WM tweaking for five minutes in a row.

[joseph_cooney]

Time to name and shame.

[santoshalper]

I have no idea if he is a bullying cock or not, but his personal website is a spectacular artifact of narcissistic douchebaggery. I am not sure I have ever seen someone tell you he doesn't care what you think of him so many times in such a short span. It reads like a high school journal.

One day, when he is an adult, he will look back on that and really cringe.

[peteforde]

Zed is often misunderstood by those who have never spent time with him in person.

He's a hoot! Funny, insightful, earnestly well-intentioned and full of ideas that are IMHO way ahead of the curve.

Him reaching out to help is not surprising.

[zedshaw]

Well, here we go again. You'll call me a cock, and then I'll rip you in half verbally, and then you'll forget that you called me a cock and go off telling everyone I'm such a big bad bullying meanie for all the horrible awful things I said to you, and then I'll be crushed by the general opinion all you highly influential meaningful people have about me that I'll...

Wait, actually I don't give a fuck what you think. I'm busy helping people while you're busy calling me a cock. Fuck you.

[singular]

...but this comment which is sincere, genuine and offered to someone for whom this could be greatly helpful has made me seriously reconsider. Kudos.

I felt you'd appreciate an unhedged opinion rather than me adding a bunch of weasel words like "I had the impression, right or wrong, that you were a bullying cock..."

I meant to say, very sincerely, that I was moved by your offer of help and it very much made me reconsider my opinion, as that gesture of kindness is really at odds with that impression of you.

So - sorry for calling you a cock. I thought what you did here was very noble and I admire it. I just felt there was no other way of expressing what I felt without being cowardly and weasel-worded about it.

[scrrr]

What a world, what a world.

If a man helps another man, which I consider normal and I thought everyone would, you are "moved" when someone is nice. On the other hand it's a scandal if someone seems unfriendly, even though their actions are kind.

Stop please. And as parent wrote, nobody really cares that you changed your opinion. Opinions are nothing, you know. Actions on the other hand really count.

[manmal]

If there is no way to express something without hurting either yourself or the other one, express yourself on a different topic. I would hate this comment too if it were directed at me.

[Tarks]

Terrible, terrible advice.

Every interaction with someone carries the chance of impact, the closer you get to talking about things related to or stemming from their core values the higher the chance you'll provoke a strong reaction (positive or negative). If you're not willing to potentially (perhaps not intentionally) express a viewpoint that could hurt the other person, then you'll be forever only talking about unimportant gumf or giving half-stated opinions that might not get the gravitas of a situation across.

Looking someone dead in the eye and without ego telling them "You're fucking up right now. Here's why" is a loving thing to do, and I'm thankful that someone cared enough to "hurt me"

[manmal]

Well it's a different kind of thing to say "I think you're a cock" vs "Hey I think you're doing this wrong - I'd do this and that to improve". While the latter can have the impact you describe, the former will just create alienation and destroys any basis of sensible communication. As demonstrated above.

Hurting is optional for learning. And personally I think it's entirely disposable.

[Tarks]

First paragraph : Note that he didn't say that. Revealing a previous passive observation versus giving advice is different. He was basically just trying to say "I think I've had the wrong impression of you", but perhaps wanted to let him know just how strong of a negative impression he had. To me it read more like a sort-of public apology for holding a mistaken belief about Zed's character and possibly nudging others to reconsider any similar viewpoints.

Second point: Yup, optional just like most tools, and just like most tools there's always a set specific challenges where it can work wonders compared to the rest of the shed.

Your mileage may vary but I'd be very surprised if you can't think of a single lesson you've remembered better because there was some pain involved, we're supposedly hardwired to better remember those lessons, for obvious life-prolonging reasons.

[j1o1h1n]

I hate to be go all happy family on you, but please avoid swear words in a public forum like hacker news. There are enough forums where that sort of behaviour is a part of the culture and it degrades everyone.

[michaelgrafl]

I would assume that discouraging people from speaking their minds the way they feel like to is more harmful to a community than having to tolerate the occasional cuss word.

I know this is just a plea of yours, not an order, but it still comes across as patronizing to me. If you hate going all happy family on someone, don't do it. It will achieve nothing but aggravate them.

[nollidge]

What you're actually asking is for people to repress their emotions, and that's way more degrading.

[overgryphon]

There are many ways to express emotions.

[pvirgiliu]

Ah... and you know the right way.

[walesmd]

I don't see a single fucking swear word in his reply...

[JanezStupar]

I love you Zed. I would bear manbabies for you.

I can remember the old days when there wouldn't be a week without Zedshaw this and Zedshaw that on HN.

And the very fact I love you is your pure, raw, passionate ethics.

I like you because you do not just ignore dumbasses. You give them a chance to see gravity of their delusion and to repent. If that means taking a dude and rubbing his nose into the poo, then be it.

Zedshaw is like an amplifying mirror. Be nice to him and he will reflect and amplify the niceness. Take him for a fool... Brace down for some Righteous Fury (tm).

[Angostura]

I think you greatly misunderstood the intent of that message. Still, I doubt you give a fuck what I think either, so as you were.

[gress]

I don't think Zed misunderstood anything. That poster is standing in judgement of Zed, and has Zed expressed his reaction.

[wellboy]

Why not try turning the attack into a compliment and make the attacker love, that's what alpha males do. :) If you need to say fuckk, your original point wasn't strong enough and you needed to reinforce it.

Saying fuck normally should be used to create rapport with someone and allowing him to use the word too.

Welp, quite some deep psycho analysis shit here.^^

[throwawaykf]

Hmm, I didn't read his reply that way. Maybe you're just going off... half-cocked?

[codex]

This entire post should be about the OP, and now it is about ZS. Can we just delete this entire subtree, please?

[digitalzombie]

I actually like your personality. You're one of the few people that don't take shit and actually stand by your actions/words.

Even with all the people shitting on your online persona, you continue to work, you've produce some stuff that people enjoy (learn the hard way), it's really admirable.

[tifareth]

People like you - the genuinely transparent and fearless - are the only ones capable of sincere gestures. The scoundrels and cowards hate you because your honesty makes them self-conscious, so they'll fight you on grounds of "politeness".

Thank you for your honesty. Whether you care or not, know that the people that value it -truly- do (unlike the cooze that reacted on you).

Also, thank you for your amazing coding lessons. Your CLI book/guide is largely responsible for helping me land my current job. I have ADHD:PI and find your "cut through the bullshit" method of teaching INCREDIBLE. I've purchased your Python book and look forward to the experience.

[JackFr]

> People like you - the genuinely transparent and fearless - are the only ones capable of sincere gestures.

Bullshit.

I assure you that I am very little like Zed -- apart from my fear and opaqueness, I also appreciate the mean as an excellent first-order summary statistic -- and yet I am very sincere in my belief that your response is pure vacuity.

[tifareth]

How can someone opaque and fearful make sincere gestures? Sincerity is only possible through honesty and integrity. Honesty and integrity require courage.

As for the mean as a first-order statistic, we clearly have different values... I like mine better.

Cheers!

[no-brainer]

I'll upvote any use of the word "cooze" especially one so apt.

[tifareth]

;D

[smoofles]

> Wait, actually I don't give a fuck what you think. I'm busy helping people while you're busy calling me a cock. Fuck you.

You so don’t give a fuck that you replied straight away.

But at least you didn’t have to repeat how busy you are helping people, since the poster you so-don’t-care-about-that you-had-to-reply-to specifically called it out as noble, amirite?

Whether the post was ment ironic or not: golfclap

[avenger123]

Nice, thanks for the laughs.

[Namrog84]

Hah brilliant!

[happywolf]

Am I the only one laughing after reading Zed's comment? Haha, nice reply :P

[znowi]

Yea, seeing zedshaw's comment I thought he was about to ridicule the guy for whatever reason. This was unexpected. A good deed, though it doesn't make him not a bullying cock all of a sudden. He's a stellar rockstar with attitude. It happens :)

[gress]

Will people please stop replying to this otherwise HN's 'flame war' and controversy detectors will kick in and bury the posting.

[nollidge]

Christ, not this shit again.

Can we all please rise above talking about personalities? How fucking drab.

[scrrr]

Grow up and stop worrying so much about what people think or say.

[shin_lao]

Every coin has two faces.