[mtravis]

Hi, Alan. Yes, many things are not built yet. Nowhere am I pushing anybody to build their business on it yet, but I am looking for hackers and early adopters/alpha testers. I've gone through pains on every doc that I've created that this is early, alpha, needs lots of work--including the 2nd paragraph of the linked-to article: "InfiniSQL is still in early stages of development--it already has many capabilities, but many more are necessary for it to be useful in a production environment."

Regarding CAP, I'm not addressing multi-site availability at this stage--I want to get single site fully operational, redundant, and so on.

And, yes, to boil it down, it's an in-memory RDBMS using the Actor model.

The most important feature is that it performs transactions involving records on multiple nodes better than anything. This is the workload that keystores functionally cannot do, and which other distributed RDBMS' suffer under. It's also open source, has over 100 pages of technical docs, and is functional enough for people to pound on with some workloads--but not something to put into production yet.

[alanctgardner2]

CAP theorem can apply to any clustered system, it doesn't have to be multi-site. What happens if 6 of your 12 machines die? What if they get cut off from the other 6?

edit: There's a bit of discussion further down about the SQL implementation. That's something I was very curious about as well. The projects linked below spend a lot of time working on supporting full ANSI SQL, and reducing latency by pushing down as many operations as possible. The Overview page doesn't appear to mention how filtering, aggregation, windowing, etc. work in your system.

Also, I noticed on your website that you compare InfiniSQL to Hadoop. How do you feel it compares to Impala (http://blog.cloudera.com/blog/2012/10/cloudera-impala-real-t...) and Shark (https://amplab.cs.berkeley.edu/projects/shark-making-apache-...)?

[mtravis]

Hi, Alan. Regarding CAP, I think that given redundant cluster interconnects, redundant managed power, odd # of cluster managers for quorum, all mean that split brain is just about out of the question, configured properly.

The main reason that I have a FAQ about Hadoop is that I have been asked repeatedly by people, "what's the difference between InfiniSQL & Hadoop?" It seems to be the data project most on a lot of people's minds. It's a fair question, so I created an FAQ entry on my site.

I don't know what Impala or Shark's performance are for transaction processing. Show me the numbers, in other words. I don't believe that Hadoop is going to eat the world, but that it's best use cases are probably in the reporting realm. It seems that Impala wants to bridge that gap between reporting and operational/transactional database--but I can't read from their architectural description just how well it would actually perform for transaction processing workloads.

Regarding Shark, it looks to me like they still see it as an parallelized reporting system, and not geared towards OLTP/operational workloads.

I expect that InfiniSQL will be able to handle quite sophisticated analytics workloads, as more capabilities are added, but they will be more for real-time. I don't see it displacing special purpose analytics environments, especially the masive unstructured ones.

Regarding filtering, aggregation, windowing, I haven't documented it yet. The SQL engine is pretty simple at this point--it parses, makes an abstract syntax tree, then executes. If you need more, then the code is there. :-)

[jbellis]

Ah, the myth of the sufficiently redundant network.

http://pl.atyp.us/wordpress/index.php/2010/10/when-partition...

http://kellabyte.com/2013/11/04/the-network-partitions-are-r...

[mtravis]

Redundant components and pathing, properly implemented and managed, are what allow enterprise storage arrays, mainframe clusters, Tandems, and the like, to operate 24x7 for years on end. Their myth seems to work.

[vidarh]

Yes, but not without addressing what should happen when split brain occurs.

[mtravis]

Well, split brain means two parts think they're both active. At that point, nothing can be done (short of manual intervention), because both parts are faulty, and likely, a bunch of others are failed.

But, to avoid split brain in a failover circumstance means that a replica won't come up unless it gets a majority of votes. There's no way for any other replica to also get a majority of votes, therefore only one replica will come active. No split brain. This, of course, assumes proper operation of the cluster management protocol.

(this is CP operation)

[vidarh]

> configured properly.

... and there is where it falls apart. Sooner or later, "someone" is going to do something Incredibly Dumb that is going to take down a lot of nodes.

If you are betting that you can just add enough redundancy split brain can't happen, I have to question why I should take you seriously with important data.

(It also indicates to me this is going to be ludicrously expensive to set up though, but that's another issue)

[mtravis]

Redundancy, quorum protocol, proactive testing, rigorous QA.

And actual 24x7 environments with important data are ludicrously expensive. I expect InfiniSQL to be less expensive since it's based on x86_64, Linux, is open source. But yeah, hardware and environment need to be right.

I'm not sure what I said wrong, but I'm nowhere claiming that split brain (or any failure scenario) can be ruled out entirely in all circumstances--but in practice, split brain is avoided 24x7 for years on end in many different architectures.

It's not magic.

Just like you can't have "enough" storage redundancy. You can have a 100-way mirror of hard drives that will still lose data if you lose 100 disks in less time than somebody replaces one of them.

[DanWaterworth]

Congratulations, you have convinced me never to use your database. You can't ignore CAP, because machine failures, momentary high latency and bona fide network partitions happen.

[spof3]

>>Show me the numbers

https://amplab.cs.berkeley.edu/benchmark/

[cmccabe]

I work at Cloudera (although not on Impala). I work on HDFS.

Impala was about creating a low-latency SQL engine for Hadoop, so that queries could be done interactively by a human at a keyboard. This is something that you don't really get with Hive (despite all the recent hype) because it simply is too slow, and has high startup costs. That's unlikely to change in the future because of the overhead of spinning up JVMs, starting MapReduce jobs, etc.

It seems like you are trying to target the OLTP market. That's a difficult market to crack. A lot of the value of things like Oracle and Microsoft SQL server is not in the database itself, but in the surrounding software. Performance is nice, but unless you can get orders of magnitude, it's very difficult to compete.

Will anybody ever bridge OLTP and OLAP? The last people who claimed to be trying to do that were Drawn to Scale, and we all know how that turned out. I think it's better to focus on doing one thing well.

Good luck.

[gnaritas]

> Regarding CAP, I think that given redundant cluster interconnects, redundant managed power, odd # of cluster managers for quorum, all mean that split brain is just about out of the question, configured properly.

Failure is never out of the question, you either plan for it or you suffer from it. CAP applies.

[eksith]

>Nowhere am I pushing anybody to build their business on it yet...

"In fact, InfiniSQL ought to be the database that companies start with--to avoid migration costs down the road."

This is far from looking for hackers and early adopters. I understand that you're enthusiastic about something you've created, but let's be reasonable for a moment. I'm more than happy to try this out, but starting my business on something that isn't proven yet and has a fair number of durability features yet to be implemented is a no, no.

Edit: My posts on this thread may be coming off as negative and that's not what I intended. I'm cautious of new technology that purports to deliver the world to me on a silver platter. That said, I'd be happy to throw everything I've got at it to see what shakes loose so you can get this to production quality sooner.

[brianpgordon]

When I see a new distributed database, the first thing I want to know is "Is it AP or CP?"

If you haven't answered that question yourself, it's likely you have a partition-intolerant system, and that in real-life scenarios people will lose data.

[mtravis]

CP in a single site. Between sites, I haven't considered it too much.

[glogla]

Do you think you could write more about this?