[yummyfajitas]

This is happening a lot in the UK a the moment as the Job Centre has been pushing for people to do this by threatening to cut their benefits if they don't do it. The result is people being forced to work for no compensation and having to pay for travel expenses out of their own (literally destitute) pocket.

From the perspective of the employee/trainee, the only difference I see between this situation and actual employment is that the name on the check is different from the name of the employer. So what's the big deal?

[csmuk]

That's the sort of ignorance that is promoted.

The big deal is that JSA which is the only paid amount is £56.80 a week. For a 40 hour standard week that is £1.42 an hour.

The national minimum wage is £6.31 an hour.

Not only that, the jobs in question can be literally 20-30 miles from your residential address so travelling is not even possible.

Also, we end up paying the JSA for the business. The business sees this as another expense avoided rather than an investment in the business. This should not be promoted!!

[yummyfajitas]

That number isn't right at all. I just pretended to be a single unemployed female with one child, and they said I was entitled to this:

Jobseeker's Allowance (Income based) £71.70 per week

Child Tax Credit £62.72 per week

Housing Benefit £115.39 per week

Child Benefit £20.30 per week

Total weekly income £270.11 per week

(This excludes the below market rent, $500gbp/month, I claimed to be paying for council housing.)

https://www.dwpe-services.direct.gov.uk/portal/page/portal/b...

That works out to 6.75GBP/hour.

As for the incentives on the business side, I agree with you. Rather than being private sector jobs, these should be low skill government jobs. We can even help the budget by replacing overpaid unionized govt workers with job seekers working for their benefits. But it's dishonest to claim that they are paid only 50GBP/week for their labor.

[edit: I took out the child, benefits were 187 GBP/week, ignoring council housing subsidies.]

[csmuk]

It doesn't work like that. As someone who has been unemployed you have to deal with the following:

1. Child tax credit works on your previous year's income so it can take up to a year to get adjusted. Same with child benefit.

2. Housing benefit takes 8-12 weeks to come through. Not only that it won't cover most private rents inside the M25. The council waiting list is 3-5 years in London so you'll have to go into arrears. The only way out is to stop paying your rent and go the council and tell them you are homeless. At which point either you or your children are split up or you get wedged in what I can only describe as a "crackhead den" at best. My other half had to clean the needles away before she could wash in the morning when this happened to her (after she was made redundant and the market was suddenly saturated with her speciality).

3. You don't get JSA immediately. It takes 4-8 weeks for it to start.

You don't just clap your hands when you're unemployed and cash starts rolling in. There are other concerns.

It's a fucking rough ride and not only that you have to do the legwork and deal with government incompetence and prejudice along the way which is more than rife.

[yummyfajitas]

Try to pay attention. We were discussing the "problem" of people already receiving benefits being compelled to work for those benefits.

While it is a problem that the council allows crackheads into public housing, and there may be problems with government incompetence, this is a somewhat separate discussion. Tangentially, if you want to require drug tests for benefits and kick people out of council housing for antisocial behavior, I have no objection.

[csmuk]

There is nothing wrong with receiving benefits. I actually receive low rate disability for two members of my family and child tax credit.

My point is that only the JSA covers your salary. The rest is for the care of your children and your accommodation, some of which you still have to pay from your JSA allowance.

You are likely to still receive all other benefits equally whether salaried at a low rate or on JSA so the difference is moot. This is simply a case of salaried vs JSA.

Actually people with social problems such as drug use and psychological problems need more help than most so they should probably get more money, but in a controlled way (untradeable LV's, healthcare etc).

[Nursie]

>> That number isn't right at all. I just pretended to be a single unemployed female with one child, and they said I was entitled to this:

If you're childless and (for instance) living with family then it would be accurate. Adding child allowances into the picture is pretty much beside the point here.

[Nursie]

They have to pay their own travel expenses, if you do the calculations then they get less than minimum wage and they are threatened with having even that withdrawn.

And the taxpayer foots the bill instead of the business, which as a societal meme can just go f*ck itself.

[arethuza]

Exactly, far better off to have the unemployed doing something rather than sitting round watching daytime TV.

[Note that I say that as someone who actually has signed on for a bit when I was a daft kid and done some pretty ghastly manual laboring jobs in agriculture and fishing].

Mind you I think having to pay their own travelling expenses is a bit harsh (mind you the first employment I had was for 12-15 hour shifts and I had to cycle 45 minutes to get there and back.)

[csmuk]

Disagree:

1. The business should foot the wage.

2. The wage should be fair.

Doing something isn't actually necessarily possible. We've automated a big chunk of people's jobs away. There isn't necessarily a place for everyone to work now. Not only that, we're living longer. Provisions need to be made for these facts.

[arethuza]

You could argue as the loaded cost of employing anyone is a good bit more than their salary that any employer is making a contribution. (Usual rule of thumb is ~50% of salary for fully loaded costs - and that's without any thing fancy).

[csmuk]

I'm a business owner and have owned several businesses. I have employed over the years ~50 people.

Your point is total bollocks. Sorry for the language but that's the sort of detached non-holistic thinking that allows slavery to exist.

They like being whipped. After all what would they do if we weren't whipping them?

It's simply exploitation although capitalism has worked out how to call it training and internship to shrug off the social and moral responsibility.

Not only that, who pays the NI and employee tax contributions? Oh wait, that gets sucked from everyone else's income tax.

[arethuza]

Leaving aside the point about making folks pay their own traveling costs, which I agree is unfair, what would you do with these people?

[And for record I have started a company that employed a few hundred and (long) before that had been unemployed for a while and had a few rather grim laboring jobs].

[csmuk]

Good for you. That's what we need. Been in the same situation.

That's easy as I've already done it before on several occasions.

I'd employ them for the minimum wage and pay up their travel allowance (be that oyster or season ticket). If they have any needs such as caring for relatives, which appears to be the main reason people are unemployed from what I have seen, I'd make sure their time and work location was flexible. I'd then make damn sure that:

a) they get some training and the ability to self improve.

b) they get a secure job.

People are grateful of both of these. If you make a positive contribution to their lives, they will make a contribution to your business. Everyone benefits.

The problem is that the prevailing opinion is that exploitation and bottom line are the most important things. While sipping champers at the wine bar, your slaves are turning the wheels for you. No thanks.

For ref, all of my business were fully reinvestment based. No profit was made, no investors were used and good, reliable salaries were paid. They weren't sold off for profit - they were given to the employees when I started venture+1 up. That was it.

[Nursie]

You could, but it would be disingenuous.

Some of the cost of employment in the UK is employers national insurance (effectively a kind o tax that gets paid by the company before the employee even sees the pay check). This is not present here. Neither is there any question of employee rights, or employer responsibilities because there's no employment.