[strumptrumpet]

I like 0MQ a lot, but this is disingenuous. Let's break it down:

> portability

Sockets are just as portable, more so on UNIX descendants where one can rely on relatively consistent socket APIs. Beyond that, almost every single language and runtime (Python, Ruby, Java, OCaml ...) provides a portable socket API.

> message framing

Length-prefixed message framing winds up being 10-100 lines of code in almost any language/environment.

> super fast asynchronous I/O

Sockets have this.

> queuing

Sockets have buffers. The OS can use those buffers to implement flow control. This isn't the same as queueing, but the truth is that you rarely want blind background queueing of an indefinite number of messages that may or may not be delivered.

> support for every bloody language anyone cares about

Just like sockets.

> huge community

I don't think you can get 'huger' than the community around sockets.

> price tag of zero

Seeing as socket libraries ship with everything, does that mean they have a time/resource cost of less than zero?

> mind-blowing performance

Also, sockets.

> protection from memory overflows

This has essentially nothing to do with a networking library. Plenty of environments have safe/efficient zero-copy chained byte buffer implementations/libraries.

> loads of internal consistency checks

Library correctness isn't a unique feature.

> patterns like pub/sub and request/reply, batching

Ah-ha! Here finally we get to the meat of it!

If you need QUEUES, including pub-sub, fanout, or any other QUEUE-based messaging structure, than 0MQ is better than sockets!

> and seamless support for inter-thread transport as well as TCP and multicast

Inter-thread transport of already-serialized messages at the transport protocol layer doesn't make a ton of sense from an efficiency perspective.

> ZEROMQ IS JUST SOCKETS

No, 0MQ is a lightweight network message queue protocol. It's not competing with sockets.

[FooBarWidget]

> Sockets are just as portable, more so on UNIX descendants where one can rely on relatively consistent socket APIs. Beyond that, almost every single language and runtime (Python, Ruby, Java, OCaml ...) provides a portable socket API.

You've got to be kidding me. The BSD socket API is only "portable" for basic things. Do any kind of advanced thing and you will notice the limitations of the "portability".

Want to write an evented server that handles a large number of sockets? Choose your favorite platform-specific API: epoll, kqueue, whatever Solaris is using, etc.

Error handling? Each platform behaves in a subtly different manner. See http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2974021/what-does-econnre... for an example.

Windows support? I hope you don't mind the #ifdefs and typedefs in code. The WinSock API is still OKish... it doesn't differ from the basic BSD socket API too much. But good luck trying to handle more than 1024 sockets in a non-blocking/async manner. I hope select() on Windows serves you well.

> Length-prefixed message framing winds up being 10-100 lines of code in almost any language/environment.

Only if you're writing blocking code. If your code is evented, good luck with writing 2-3 times more code. Oh, and don't you dare getting that code wrong and introduce bugs. And of course you have to write this code every single time. And you didn't forget to unit test all that, did you?

[chrismonsanto]

Most of your argument is that each OS uses a different IO multiplexer. Lightweight abstractions over these multiplexers have been around for decades: feel free to use libuv if you want a fairly 'modern' one.

That the contour of the API differs slightly means nothing. An example of true incompatibility would be, say, supporting UNIX-style mounts on Windows. If you wanted to support that cross-platform, either you or a library would have to directly implement the semantics of UNIX mounts, as opposed to just making a shim over what the OS already provides.

[FooBarWidget]

Whether lightweight abstractions exist is moot. The point of the grandparent was that sockets are portable. If you're going to use an extra library besides pure sockets anyway then why is that any better compared to using ZMQ?

[nilliams]

> That the contour of the API differs slightly means nothing.

What? It means everything if you have to learn socket intricacies at different levels of abstraction on a per-platform basis. That is not what most people mean when they say an API or library is portable.

[justinhj]

Hahaha so true. Last year I wrote some network code that had to use sockets on windows, Linux, xbox 360 and playstation. 3. Each had many slight deviations in the low level socket API, from different behaviours to different error codes.

[jebblue]

>> Want to write an evented server that handles a large number of sockets?

What about what the parent said, use a multi-platform technology like Java, Python, Ruby, etc?

[FooBarWidget]

The socket APIs in Java, Python, Ruby etc don't do message framing for you. My point about having to write bug-free message frame parsing code still stands.

[rumcajz]

Original 0MQ author here. Pretty good analysis. The only real difference between 0MQ and sockets (i.e.traditional L4 transports such as TCP or UDP) is that it implements messaging patterns such as pub/sub or req/rep. You can think of it as a L5 layer designed to orchestrate communication between N endpoints (as opposed to 2 endpoints as is the case with TCP).

[hintjens]

Perhaps that is how you saw it. However you are dramatically wrong. ZeroMQ v4 does full end-to-end encryption, supports protocols like TIPC, and (you knew this but choose to forget it for reasons I never understood) entirely changes how we write multithreaded applications.

The only plausible reason you could disregard the magic of using the same semantics for secure internet messaging and inter-thread messaging is that you don't write applications.

[mjs]

(FWIW, parent commentator more or less co-founded ZeroMQ with the grand-parent commentator; rumcajz left the project and is now working on http://nanomsg.org/.)

[aktau]

I agree that the full end-to-end encryption is an awesome feature, though it is very recent. And I didn't even know about the TIPC support.

[gwright]

After working with 0MQ for a while I felt that this sort of summary was misleading.

I came to think of 0MQ as a multi-point data link abstraction (i.e. layer 2). The API abstracts over sockets, IPC message queues, and in-process message queues as the virtual layer-1 transports.

I say it is a layer-2 abstraction because 0MQ doesn't provide any mechanism for addressing or transparently routing over an internet of connected 0MQ networks. You can do source-based routing by explicitly naming the intermediate hops but this is more like intellegent layer-2 bridging than traditional layer-3 routing. There is no concept of a layer-3 address or naming scheme of any kind and there any important layer-4 features (re-transmissions, flow-control, out-of-order resequencing).

The message structure and fan-in/fan-out features are very useful but they are operating at a layer-2 level, not a 3, 4, 5, etc. layer, from my perspective.

It has been about a year since I spent time with 0MQ so perhaps it has evolved beyond what I experienced.

[andrewcooke]

how does nanomsg compare?

[bjeanes]

I just found http://nanomsg.org/documentation-zeromq.html. If you haven't seen it, perhaps it can offer some comparisons for you.

[angersock]

If you don't mind me asking--why isn't there a bus primitive in 0MQ?

We're doing a simulation using it and we've ended up with a bunch of pub/subs instead of a shared bus.

It's not terrible, but is a little weird.

[aktau]

You might be interested in nanomsg (http://nanomsg.org/), the spiritual successor/spinoff of zeromq, by the original creator (the parent you replied to, Martin Sustrik). It features a BUS pattern too.

[illumen]

TCP/IP does multiple endpoints as well (multicast, multipath, broadcast, server to many, iptables/pfw rules) etc.

Various queue control methods are available in TCP/IP also.

UDP is the only way to get decent performance if your application is designed around it. Why bother resending data if it is too old now to be useful, or if the data arrived via another route? TCP often has more variable latency than UDP, which is the main performance killer for certain types of apps. zeromq isn't multipath aware either.

[noselasd]

For many people getting the data from A to B as reliable as possible is more important than getting max performance. If that's something you need to worry about, you either end up implementing a worse TCP on top of UDP, or wondering why data disappear without notice.

Dealing with multicast is a real pain in the neck to deal with in your network infrastructure unless you only want it on one subnet, which restricts you just as much as traditional broadcast.

multipath is either something you leave to the routers, or use a protocol such as SCTP or, hope multipath-TCP will come to your OS in the near future, or you manage it in the application.

It's unclear what you mean by server to many, in this context it sounds like what you'd use a zmq socket to fan out messages for.

The queue mechanism in TCP/IP are for the transport layer, not for implementing application policy.

[unoti]

> Length-prefixed message framing winds up being 10-100 lines of code in almost any language/environment.

Over the years, I've worked on several different systems that wrote those "10-100" lines of message framing from scratch, and had to fix subtle, hard-to-track-down bugs with those. It's a conceptually simple thing that's very easy to have subtle bugs in edge cases. Edge cases that are difficult or impossible to produce in development systems, that do happen in production systems once you're running high volumes. An example of this is sockets pausing and in the middle of sending the multi-byte length, and needing to fiddle with certain parameters on the sockets that control heartbeat and other minutia.

It's certainly simple to write something that works well, but also very simple to write something that works well but will fail in subtle ways under certain kinds of circumstances.

[RickHull]

With (dirt simple) length-prefix framing, and blocking reads, pauses and such are non-issues. e.g. blocking read for 2 length bytes, blocking read for N bytes of payload. If your read fails for any reason, or you've timed out, then you give up and close the connection.

Your application protocol needs to handle timeouts (some sort of retry, preferably with some notion of idempotency).

The problem with:

> > Length-prefixed message framing winds up being 10-100 lines of code in almost any language/environment.

is that it's not really a response the ZMQ feature. With ZMQ you don't have to reimplement for every application and platform.

[lttlrck]

Can you elaborate on why pausing on sending is particularly tricky when sending a multi-byte length header compared to say pauses on any other part of the payload?

[unoti]

It's particularly tricky when dealing with async code, where you can't simply say "block here till you have 4 bytes." If you're just getting in events that say "you received n bytes and here they are."

[mattgreenrocks]

All networking code should work even if it receives 1 byte at a time. Use a buffer, and have some sort of abstraction responsible for packetizing the input. The output of that module is a fully formed frame ready for interpretation.

[ryanpetrich]

0MQ is competing with sockets in the same way that SQLite is competing with fopen.

[nilliams]

The only points of yours I agree with are the claims of 'price tag of zero' and 'mind-blowing performance'. The rest seem to be apples/oranges comparisons and being intentionally obtuse, e.g. as to what 'portable' and 'community' mean.

> Sockets are just as portable [...] almost every single language and runtime (Python, Ruby, Java, OCaml ...) provides a portable socket API.

It's not portability if you have to learn APIs at varying levels of abstraction for each language you need to port to.

> Length-prefixed message framing winds up being 10-100 lines of code in almost any language/environment.

That is work to do in every single language you wish to work in. You are acknowledging the value that ZeroMQ provides in not requiring you to carry out this work.

>> support for every bloody language anyone cares about

> Just like sockets.

Except with the aforementioned portability (APIs at a consistent level of abstraction), which is not something raw sockets provide.

>> loads of internal consistency checks

> Library correctness isn't a unique feature.

Not sure what that means. ZeroMQ's claimed value-add here is in providing correctness in various languages, that you would not get otherwise when using raw sockets.

>> huge community

> I don't think you can get 'huger' than the community around sockets.

People writing socket code in C don't go to SocketConf and meet people writing socket code in Python. They don't idle in #socket on IRC. They don't swap blog posts about the cool 'socket patterns' they wrote today. It's not a community.

>> and seamless support for inter-thread transport as well as TCP and multicast

> Inter-thread transport of already-serialized messages at the transport protocol layer doesn't make a ton of sense from an efficiency perspective.

It's a feature nonetheless. That you think it doesn't make sense 'from an efficiency perspective' does not invalidate that feature.

>> protection from memory overflows

> This has essentially nothing to do with a networking library. Plenty of environments have safe/efficient zero-copy chained byte buffer implementations/libraries.

But you don't get that with raw sockets in every environment, which is the point.

[e12e]

I actually thought this story was a link to:

http://hintjens.com/blog:42 ("A Web Server in 30 Lines of C")

before I clicked through. Salient quote:

"ØMQ Is Just Like BSD Sockets, But Better

The other essential ingredients of a creation myth are lies and deception. ØMQ is nothing at all like BSD sockets despite very insistent attempts from its early designers to make that. Yes, the API is vaguely socket-like. APIs are not the same as semantics. ØMQ patterns are weird and wonderful and delicate but they are not, and I'll repeat this, even marginally close to the BSD "stream of bytes from sender to recipient" pattern."

[hintjens]

Indeed. The original "sockets on steroids" story was wrong, though sincere. Sockets are the API but the actual machine underneath is nothing like a BSD socket. ZeroMQ has in the last years moved away from the "it's a BSD socket" metaphor as it is a tediously limiting API in many ways, and created the unnecessary confusion that I wanted to pick on in this story.

[memracom]

I think you are missing the fact that 0MQ builds on top of sockets. Of course you can do all of the same things using just plain sockets but then you end up implementing parts of 0MQ. Like all libraries, 0MQ is a set of preimplemented features that you can just use in order to work at a higher level of abstraction and not worry about corner cases so much.

[hintjens]

You do realize the page is humor, right?

A serious explanation of ZeroMQ takes 500 pages and several weeks to read.

[dpark]

> A serious explanation of ZeroMQ takes 500 pages and several weeks to read.

I hope this is not true. It doesn't speak well to ZeroMQ at all.

[memracom]

It's not true. I checked http://zguide.zeromq.org/page:all and it would only take 332 pages to print it all out. And to understand ZeroMQ you only need to read the first few pages and skim the rest. That is enough to see that ZeroMQ is a serious attempt at letting you use the same design patterns that you would use with Message Queuing over top of plain sockets, i.e. there is zero Message Queue system behind the curtain. 0MQ is useful because these design patterns make it easier to build correct and powerful applications that leverage network connectivity.

I have built applications that use both AMQP messaging with RabbitMQ and ZeroMQ for the parts where an MQ broker was not necessary or where it would impact performance.

The arguments swirling around ZeroMQ and sockets are the same ones that swirl around threading and higher abstractions. We now know that it is hard to write correct programs using threading unless you refrain from using locks and either have all state immutable or you use lock-free access techniques. There are many libraries (even for Android and iOS) that encapsulate threading with a task-oriented layer that communicates between tasks/threads using queues.

Sometimes you have to make a decision NOT to do something that you CAN do, because of the greater good of the work.

[hintjens]

It's no different than any significant technology that has few antecedents. Once you know the background and cast away assumptions and fallacies, it's much easier of course.

[camperman]

Read the ZeroMQ guide for yourself. It is IMHO one of the finest (and funniest) ever written.

[asdasf]

It is not true, at all.

[zenocon]

I don't find it that disingenuous. I recently used 0MQ on a project, and quite frankly it would have taken a lot more code to do what 0MQ provided out of the box.

0MQ implementation is built on Sockets. I can build the same features on top of Sockets, but why would I want to if it works well?

Side note: I'm interested in looking deeper in to nanomsg http://nanomsg.org/index.html -- which is a re-write of 0MQ by the original author.