[stcredzero]

> Code folding in a IDE goes a long way to make this bearable.

Code folding in IDEs is an indication that we are doing it wrong -- that is, we human beings are programming computers "wrong."

I'm not saying that code folding is a symptom. I'm saying that code folding shows how primitive our means of managing code is. It's as if the mesopotamians somehow invented computers, and because of tradition, all code has to be written as cuneiform on wet clay tablets, then fired in ovens before being read. At least text files in directories are digital, but they are as static and behavior-less as clay tablets, and all of the important relationships therein are expressed as implicit correspondences which programmers have to keep track of in their heads.

Code Bubbles is a beacon in the direction we should go.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PsPX0nElJ0k

[skrishnamurthi]

Code Bubbles were invented one floor above me (by another team in computer science at Brown University). So, we're not at all unaware of it. And yes, it's great stuff.

But we also had to make a conscious decision about IDEs, and we decided to be IDE agnostic -- IDEs should enhance the language but not be the only means of working with it, because programmers are really attached to their editors, and a language predicated on tearing people away from their editors will stuggle. Also, having been part of DrRacket from version 0.0, I know how long it takes to make one that's any good.

[stcredzero]

Code Bubbles were invented one floor above me (by another team in computer science at Brown University).

I wrote a significant fraction of a Smalltalk class browser.

IDEs should enhance the language but not be the only means of working with it, because programmers are really attached to their editors, and a language predicated on tearing people away from their editors will struggle.

So, basically you made the pragmatic decision. What you say is true, but I suspect this tendency is ultimately holding us back.

[skrishnamurthi]

I've had this argument for twenty years. I had my a-ha moment in grad school when, after I'd put a fair bit of work into a build system and showed it around, my advisor asked me, "What is a file?" And then I was enlightened. So I can play this song back with fairly good fidelity.

If I could get a reliable, efficient, cross-platform, extensible, quickly-ported-to-new-platforms environment that gave me rich editing, I'd grab it. I don't know of such a platform. So we made the "pragmatic" decision, yes. That's because this isn't the problem we're trying to solve.

We are actually trying to innovate in the programming environment space, and have been running with that experiment for the past semester internally at Brown. At some point, after it's been knocked around a bit more, we'll make it public. So we're not avoiding the environment space. But this is not a battle we're seeking to pick in that space.

I wish you luck with it, and hope we can build on the work of people like you.

[kazagistar]

While in some sense I agree with you, stuff like code bubbles is just a incremental step from folding. If you want better interfaces for your coding, you write bidirectional transformations between your representation and the text; the point being that the underlying representation does not particularly matter. Having underlying text, however, means you have a good fallback in case your tools do fail.

I would say the more potent point is that it should not matter at all if the tests are in the function or in a different directory: the IDE should be able to fold them in either way, and in some sense, IDEs already do have partial support for this.

[stcredzero]

> While in some sense I agree with you, stuff like code bubbles is just a incremental step from folding.

I said it was a "beacon in the direction we want to go," not a lighthouse at the destination!

> the point being that the underlying representation does not particularly matter. Having underlying text, however, means you have a good fallback in case your tools do fail.

Sure, do this, so long as the representation doesn't limit the objective capabilities of the environment and so long as it doesn't limit the ways tool makers think about code. Unfortunately, our current representations clearly do both.

[andrewflnr]

Code bubbles looks cool, but I don't see the connection with your point about clay tablets. Any digital data is, by itself, flat and behavior-less, whether it's in the form of traditional files or some specially-designed backing store for something like Code Bubbles. I don't see any point in really trying to hide that base reality.

I am in favor of giving links between data a more prominent place in our storage systems. I envision a system where the data is mostly fine-grained trees, like sexprs, where hard-links between trees are first-class entities. But at the end of the day it's just an abstraction over a bunch of bytes.

[stcredzero]

> Any digital data is, by itself, flat and behavior-less, whether it's in the form of traditional files or some specially-designed backing store for something like Code Bubbles.

I know this is false. You can have a system where everything is an object and carries behavior around with it. We've had those for over 40 years.

> I am in favor of giving links between data a more prominent place in our storage systems.

A "more prominent place?" Isn't this a bit bass-ackwards? Aren't relationships in code where the primary value is?

[andrewflnr]

The behavior carried around by those objects is ultimately in the form of flat digital data, interpreted by other, more general programs, executed on a CPU. Behavior, when it comes down to it, is a property of silicon, not data. This might seem like a useless distinction, but I don't think it is. I like to keep track of what things are underneath the abstractions.

[aidenn0]

I think you're completely backwards on this.

Code folding in an IDE is an example of a way in which text files aren't necessarily static and behavior-less. I see no reason to move away from an underlying representation as text.

[stcredzero]

I see no reason to move away from an underlying representation as text.

A big reason is that otherwise people won't move away from the paradigm of static text files. The best they'll do is text files with little gimmicks attached to them.