[smokeyj]

> Why should you get to enjoy the payout of investing three centuries worth of tax revenue if you are not going to contribute?

You're portraying industry and taxation as a chicken and egg scenario, and by proving that taxation is why your job is here, taxation must therefore be the enabler of civilization (and as a result, just and moral -- to the extent you support caging people who do not agree). Your basic premise is theoretically and historically inaccurate.

As for your disdain for limited government, that's what set the US apart. It's why we grew to have the largest industry in the world. By your reasoning, Cuba and North Korea should have regulated themselves into endless prosperity by now. Let me buy you a ticket.

[quinnchr]

Cuba has a longer life expectancy, lower infant mortality, and more gender equality than the US. It also has a much better educational system.

So yes, I would actually love to live in Cuba, so I will take you up on your offer to buy me a ticket.

You can email me at [e-mail] to make arrangements.

Thanks!

[quinnchr]

Also, if you want to provide any evidence for any of your claims, that'd be great!

[smokeyj]

You need evidence that economic prosperity should not come at the expense of human rights? Or that America was founded on the principles of restricted government and individual liberty seeking freedom from religious persecutions? Or that shaping moments of this nation was a tax revolt that led to the American Revolution? I don't have time to give history lessons, but I'm not making it up. Check it out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States

[quinnchr]

Ahahahahah the entire history of the United States is based on expanding economic prosperity at the expense of human rights. For fucks sake slavery was enshrined in our constitution because it was so profitable. Then there was the whole genocide of native populations at the expense of economic growth.

And yes obviously they were revolting over having to pay taxes not you know the whole taxation without representation thing (hmmm... taxation in exchange for representation, that sounds almost like some sort of social contract). Maybe try reading some history through a different lens than "waaaaah taxes!" Why don't you give this a try: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_People's_History_of_the_Unite...

Also I was dead serious about accepting your offer to buy me a ticket to Cuba, you can email me at [e-mail]

Thanks!

[smokeyj]

You made the case that the US should be a poster child for unrestricted government, citing Somalia as a contrast. I'm simply saying that the beginnings of the US more closely resembled the Wild West than a well-regulated market place. You're only supporting my point in arguing that even the most "civilized" of governments are founded in death and despair, but you probably won't realize that as you're not arguing out of principle.

I will seriously buy your ticket if you promise to stay in Cuba. Email me in a year with proof and I'll send some bitcoins your way. Maybe they'll have computers in Cuba by then.

[quinnchr]

Yes you are correct when the U.S. was founded it had almost no regulations, no taxes (aside from tariffs), and federalism hadn't quite been worked out yet so the U.S. government was as small as it could have been. I would argue that that's about as close to a truly "Free Market" as America ever got.

...and the result was enslavement, genocide, and subjugation. Yay! I don't know what you mean by saying I'm not arguing out of principle. I'm citing specific events and facts while you sit there and say "but history!" while not responding to any of the evidence I'm providing or providing any of your own.

You offered to buy me a ticket, not promise to reimburse me if I stayed for a year. If you're already trying to back out of your verbal (written?) contract you must be a pretty shitty libertarian. How about this, I'll draw up a contract in which I agree to stay for a year on the condition that you pay for my ticket with the requirement that if I fail to prove residency after one year I will reimburse you for the ticket. A ticket from where I live to Key West (an hour boat ride away) is less than 200$. What do you say? Are you willing to put your money where your mouth is?

And hey maybe when (if) I come back in a year the U.S. might have a functional education system and get that healthcare thingy figured out. I mean it's kind embarrassing we're doing worse than a country that doesn't have computers. Except they do have computers despite the efforts of the U.S. embargo.

[smokeyj]

> I don't know what you mean by saying I'm not arguing out of principle

Let me put it another way. The efficacy and morality of taxation cannot be deduced via extrapolating historical economic and sociological data points. If a country has high taxes and is economically well off, that doesn't refute that taxation constitutes theft. It also doesn't prove that they couldn't have been better off with lesser or no taxes. Just because a region has low taxes or low regulation doesn't mean it's the epitome of what a decentralized society has to look like either. I can tell you think you have my ideology in a little libertarian box, but you're only fooling yourself.

As for your ticket, I'm not backing out -- but the condition is you have to stay. I'll buy your ticket and send it to you, but you have to put down a safety deposit on a mutually agreed upon arbitrator for the amount of $400. Every year you can prove residency you get $100 back. If you can't prove residency, I keep the remaining funds.