[quinnchr]

Except that your culture, job, and home are there largely because of the services your tax dollars support.

So yes if you're not willing to give up those things you just accepted that newfangled thingy we call "The Social Contract."

[np422]

One could also argue that I have a job, culture and home despite the government - not thanks to them.

There are very large and practical advantages of organizing judicial system, infrastructure and other basic, hard to replace societal services through a tax system.

But history shows us that the more a government interferes the less efficient the result will be.

My analysis of the current situation would be that since all power corrupts the governments of today have become hard-handed, arbitrary in their exercise of powers and blind to the consequences. The amount self restraint that an ordinary citizen could expect from governments seems to be long gone, they pass another law, they raise the taxes and use the "social contract" as a pretext.

I am a very firm believer in non-violence and non-force and would like to minimize the use of violence and force as much as possible, advocates of statism and authoritarians in general don't seem to agree with that view.

Please see the article at the top of this thread for a good example of what I'm talking about.

[quinnchr]

Then go ahead and make the argument.

Also, unless you are an anarchist who rejects all forms of capitalism, then I would argue you do support the use of violence and force, you just support a different kind of authoritarianism.

[lwhalen]

Oooh, a social contract reference, my favorite! Please, show me this social contract I've signed. Where can I read the specific terms of this contract, and how do I challenge/nullify the clauses I disagree with?

[quinnchr]

You sign it every day by choosing to live here...

You challenge/nullify the parts you disagree with using this nifty tool we call, "The Democratic Process".

The specific terms of the contract are available here: http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/browse/collectionUScode.action;jses...

[lwhalen]

Fair enough, but according to Wikipedia's rough overview of contract law: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contract (because we all know Wikipedia is the end-all be-all of authority on matters like this)

it appears the Gov't is in violation of their part of the contract, to wit the clause of AT LEAST the 4th Amendment (unreasonable searches and seizures; see the TSA, see most police conduct, see the crap with the NSA, etc etc ad nauseam). Therefor, I should be able to nullify and void this 'social contract' and (among other things, trying to keep it simple since we're arguing 'on the internet') not pay my taxes. We all know how well that will work out - fines, court summons, all culminating with large men with heavy clubs and guns knocking on my door to 'coerce' me to fulfill "my half" of the bargain.

If the deck is stacked so far against you there's no reasonable way to remedy your grievances, it ain't a 'contract' it's a 'coercion' or 'an offer you can't refuse'. The government is a bully with a very large, very powerful club, and we have no reasonable recourse against it. We try to play by the rules, they'll change the rulebook or completely change the game. Ergo, the grand-grand-grand-parent commenter who said "Taxes are an armed robbery" is essentially correct.

I'm not even going to get into the 'contracts made under duress aren't enforceable contracts' side of things.

And, apropos of nothing, while I personally don't mind paying most taxes, I'd like to see a way for individuals to pay 'their share' and indicate what programs their money would get allocated to "Humble Indie Bundle" style. A 'reasonable default' for the majority who don't care, but sliders and drop-downs with various degrees of detail for those who do. I'd like to be able to shunt all of my tax money into silos for 'road repair', 'public education', "fireman's fund", etc, and keep it away from things like "Department of Defense" "local police forces", and "NSA slush fund". tl; dr - A highly granular way to "vote with my dollar". I doubt that will get implemented in my lifetime (if ever), but a man can dream...

[quinnchr]

If my landlord breaks the terms of my lease I am more than free to move, but I don't get to stay there for free just because he broke the contract.

You can nullify the contract by leaving any time you like. Or you can attempt to hold the government to the contract using a little known facet of our democratic process called "The Legislative Branch."

[np422]

Once again ... It's not a fair argument to say that you can leave any time you want.

Your home, family, friends, culture, job and probably a big part of your identity will be left behind. Even in states with well known scumbag governments people tend to stay until they have a very real threat to their life and person.

And to think that democracy is a kill-everything-silver-bullet is very naive, we have had laws written under democratic rule that allowed one person to own other persons, less then 10 years ago sexual intercourse between men were still illegal some states in USA.

And yet I agree that a central government is preferable to no central government, I would also agree that democracy is very much preferred over the alternatives.

All I ask is that the social contract is not to be used as a pretext for things that are not absolutely necessary since we are born into that contract and can not nullify it in any realistic way at a later stage in life. Please respect my personal freedom, privacy and individual rights - keep the use of force and violence against others to an absolute minimum.

Is that to much to ask?

PS Search youtube for video called "George Ought to Help", it may contain some things worth thinking about

[quinnchr]

Democracy is not the only option, according to the terms of the contract violent revolution is also on the table, but a cursory study of U.S. history will tell you how bad of an idea that is.

Also as I already pointed out, your home, family, friends, culture, and job are there largely because of the services the government provides. So while it may suck, if you disagree with paying taxes you can not pay them and leave, or you can stay pay your taxes and continue to enjoy the services of the government.

Here's a thought experiment. Imagine if the government hadn't invested it's tax revenue back into national defense and infrastructure for the past three centuries. Do you still think your home, family, friends, culture, or job would exist? Why should you get to enjoy the payout of investing three centuries worth of tax revenue if you are not going to contribute?

People give up their homes, family, friends, and culture every single day in the U.S. just to survive. Now I do think it's definitely unfair to those who simply can't afford to move. If that's the case for you or the parent I was responding to, I will personally buy you a plane ticket to Somalia (or any other place with limited government) and give you two months rent.