| I'd prefer this discussion continue on this site rather than the other, if you've no preference. ;) >The value offered by religion has absolutely no bearing on the truthfulness of the religion
I don't disagree, but I argue that the value it offers is more important than the absolute truth of every ideology. Faith, by definition, transcends evidence. If that's not OK with you that's fine, but I also doubt that every word you've ever uttered was the complete and total truth. Also if you can causally link those statistics, I'd love to read it. But from where I'm sitting, I see only correlation. The fact that religion has been used to cover atrocities does not mean either that they were caused by religion nor that they would not have happened without religion. As evidence I point to atrocities divorced of religion. I am not fit to debate the problem of evil, but my point again is that this isn't a silver bullet for atheism. There are faiths or interpretations of faith that circumvent the issue entirely, so I don't view it as an overly effective argument. I can't debate the aspects of the qur'an because I, you know, respect others' beliefs, but for the Biblical aspect I'll quote something that another commenter on hn brought up: >Joseph Campbell: "These bits of information from ancient times [myths], which have to do with the themes that have supported man's life, built civilizations, informed religions over the millennia, have to do with deep inner problems, inner mysteries, inner thresholds of passage. And if you don't know what the guide signs are along the way you have to work it out yourself. "
>See http://www.pbs.org/moyers/faithandreason/perspectives1.html
Very few people read the Bible literally. To pretend that they do is the essence of strawmanning. >I get the feeling that the author feels it's ok to reject the scientific account
N-no? Why would I think that. I don't defend people who deny scientific fact. But again, it's fallacious to think that that represents the whole, or even the majority, of religious folk. >Unlike Jesus, I don't think we should enact thought-crime legislation
Tipping your hand a little bit there. I don't ever remember Jesus saying "Let's not let others have freedom of thought." Again, I DO NOT advocate ignoring science for the sake of religion. I never said that, and your and others' persistent insinuation that I am saying this is exactly the sort of behaviour that motivated me to write that in the first place. |
I do take issue with your statement that "Faith, by definition, transcends evidence." A quick glance at Dictionary.com gives me a different definition that states faith is "belief that is not based on proof". If faith, by your definition, somehow transcends evidence, why should I respect that? In what other area of our discourse is it not only permissible but actually desirable to believe something strongly either in the absence of or in direct refutation of evidence?
I agreed with you on the evil of men, but the point I was trying to make is that religion does not seem to be a barrier to atrocities. A glance through the pages of history is all that's needed to demonstrate this. Even the pope in 2000 gave a mea culpa on atrocities committed by the Church in the course of two millenia.
I found the passage from Campbell to be entertaining. Frankly, it's white noise. What I find interesting about this and the suggestion that we shouldn't read these texts literally is that you have somehow stumbled upon the "correct" interpretation. Of course the universe wasn't created in six days. Of course the sun didn't stand still in the sky for 24 hours. Of course God didn't drown the entire world in a massive flood. Of course Jonah didn't actually stay in the belly of a large fish. Are you saying that people throughout history have never taken these stories literally or treated them as historical facts? The truth is that as our knowledge of the world has advanced, we now treat these stories as parables and metaphors. Allow me to quote my earlier statement: "An omniscient being should be able to explain in unambiguous terms what it expects. No holy book fits that description."
When we read in the Hadith (which has equal canonical authority to the Qur'an) that the appropriate punishment for apostasy is death, are we to believe that this is simply a metaphor? Are we taking it too literal? I contend that it's either the will of God or it isn't. Perhaps Christianity is easier to discuss for you. In the Christian faith, I can assure you that men like St Thomas Aquinas and St Augustine had read Jesus' teachings in the New Testament along with God's Old Testament commands to suffer not a witch to live, and they found it completely appropriate to kill women for this imaginary crime. If you're saying that God never meant Exodus 22:18 to be taken literally, congratulations - because you've been able to correctly interpret this ancient text in a way that some of the most venerated religious leaders could not. Kudos to you.
I don't understand your "tipping your hand" comment, but I can address the gist of your argument. Just because you don't ever remember Jesus enacting thought-crime legislation doesn't negate my argument. Read the Sermon on the Mount. When Jesus says that not just the physical act of adultery is against the law, but that the thoughts leading up to it are just as immoral and against the law, that is the very essence of thought-crime legislation. No?
Having read your opinions and responded to them, I am inclined to agree with an earlier poster who doubted your atheistic standing. "Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves."