[candydance]

>>Whereas someone who is, say, 6'2" will be attractive to women solely on the virtue of being tall.

Lol no. As a 6'2" man with social anxiety, being tall is not some magical doorway to getting the ladies.

Effort is more important, grooming is more important, being able to hold a conversation is more important, etc.

edit: I'm not saying height isn't an advantage. I'm saying that there are MANY other factors which matter MUCH more than just height.

[DanBC]

Take two people who make the same amount of effort, groom as well as each other, can hold conversations, etc.

One of them is 6'2", the other is 4'10". Which one is going to have an easier time?

Hight is an advantage.

[candydance]

Now unbalance it a bit, if the 6'2" can't hold a conversation he's going to fail. This means that holding a conversation is more important.

Same thing if he's not well groomed, same thing if he's out of shape. Same thing good career vs unemployed.

And these are all things that can be improved if you work at it.

Height is an advantage, but it's not the most important one.

[bluecalm]

>Now unbalance it a bit, if the 6'2" can't hold a conversation he's going to fail. This means that holding a conversation is more important.

This is wrong reasoning. You may just well say: if someone can hold a conversation but is 3'10'' he is going to fail hence height is more important. Let me improve it for you: Some minimal level is necessary in all respects: height, holding a conversation, not being awkward, not being disgusting. Once you have that various factors counts at various degrees - height is one of the most important ones (if not the most important one). Status is a contender but guess what: height helps with achieving that too (as it does with acquiring wealth as well). Also you can work on improving almost anything (holding a conversation, money, athletism) but you can't improve your height. It's huge inherent advantage, nothing comes close.

[scarmig]

As a pretty short, straight-seeming bi guy (5'2), I have a unique perspective that might be enlightening about the importance of height to women.

Although I hate projecting people onto the 0-10 spectrum, I'll do it here for illustrative purposes.

With women, I have a great deal of difficulty attracting anyone: it's less that I match with numerical ones and twos than not matching with anyone at all. Not no one--and those I do succeed with are typically even middling on the spectrum--but it's a massive crapshoot.

With men, I can go out to a bar on any night of the week and bring home someone in the top half and usually an eight or nine. Sure, that's meaningless shit, but converting those into relationships isn't difficult at all (or at least no more difficult than anyone in the gay community has converting hookups to relationships).

The difference is incredibly striking, and anyone who says height isn't a factor in women dating is so wrong that it's incomprehensible that they've ever bothered to even talk to a woman about how she feels about height in dating partners.

[sanoli]

I have plenty of women friends who have told me flat-out they wouldn't date a man shorter than them.

[scarmig]

That's pretty common as a phenomenon: I wouldn't say it's a cliff so much as a very steep grade. My current girlfriend is an inch taller than me, and taller than that in heels (and I love her in them!). But she's the tallest person I've ever dated.

It also shows the shortcomings (no pun intended...) of the 0-10 rating model: there's neither generic Man nor generic Woman. Your rating to women you're more than two or three inches taller than (could be 0, could be 10) is almost entirely independent of your rating to women you're two or three inches shorter than (0).

[sanoli]

As a 6'2" man, to me it is evident that I have a clear advantage over my friends, and it is evident for them too. Of course, I'm not a bum with dirty fingernails who can only talk about WoW. Think of the extra height as an extra effort, social skill set, whatever, that the person inherently has. It sucks, I agree.

[wtvanhest]

Height absolutely has advantages but at 5'9 with friends that are both taller and shorter I can say that without a doubt, effort is an under-appreciated equalizer for men.

Its not 100% with 100% of women, but by putting in effort, i.e. learning how to talk to women, dressing well, and being friendly and social with other people... any guy can vastly improve their dating situation.

[BerislavLopac]

I must have some pretty screwed perspective, but I've never thought of 188cm (6'2") as being tall, at least not exceptionally. I'm 193cm (6'4") and I find myself just moderately above average, with many men (talking about men exclusively, of course) quite taller than me. From my experience, I'd expect the average to be around 180cm (6").

[sanoli]

Hum, are you in the Netherlands? 188cm is definitely tall in pretty much everywhere. 193cm, you're probably in the top 1% in everywhere except two or three countries.

[BerislavLopac]

Well, I took a look after posting that comment, and this is what I found: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Average_height_around_... -- sort by the first column descending, skip all the N/A items (I'm not sure why would they miss all that data for men when it's perfectly available for women) and you'll find my origin at the top of the actual results. I guess that might explain a lot.

[sanoli]

Try this mental test the next time you see a very short, slim, but quite good looking guy. Now imagine him in a 6'3" athletic build. It drastically changes the appeal this guy has. This was told to me by a woman friend, and it happens everytime I think about it. If you're successful, smart, a good person (or much more important: not a jerk), you can find a good person and have a relationship, a meaningful, lasting one. But if you base your romantic success in how easily you get dates/get laid compared to taller, broad shouldered athletic guys, then you'll probably end up frustrated.

[rfnslyr]

People who are short look as height as "the key". It's really not and it truly doesn't matter if you don't have other features to compliment height. If you're overweight and 6'2, it doesn't matter.

[bluecalm]

Maybe it's better to say: height is great advantage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_attractiveness#Height_...) but it's still possible to screw it up.

I don't agree that it's "truly doesn't matter". Yeah you won't be a rockstar popular guy if you are fat or have bad social anxiety but your position and prospects would be even worse if you were short as well.

>Exactly. The most successful lothario in my university class was a short guy who went to the gym 5 days a week, had exceptional grooming and was extremely confident/comfortable around women. Height is a very small factor in these things.

It really puts me on tilt reading things like that. Yes, height is not the only factor, yes it's still possible to achieve great things without it, yes you can be attractive/popular without it. Yet it's still very important factor which puts you at great advantage in both dating and career game. Just because there are some shorter guys who "outperformed" taller guys doesn't mean it disproves the height=advantage theorem.

[candydance]

I never said height is worth nothing. Height is A factor, not THE factor.

[bluecalm]

It "the" factor as in: the most important out of other factors. One you will often get automatically disqualified for. One for which you will be automatically taken less seriously in dating, in other social situations in workplace in politics. One you can do absolutely nothing about. Other things may make significant difference but most things are possible to work on. With height you are out of luck and have to listen to condescending "short guys should put more effort to deserve the same" talk your whole life or my favorite: "maybe you should lower your ambitions" (often disguised and said in more pc way) - why ? Because you were born that way.

Now, being the most important still doesn't mean it's 80% or even 50% if you try to measure those things as there many other factors (and sucking on many fronts will reduce the biggest of inherent advantages) but its huge.

You said it's not the most important factor but then when challenged you offered logical fallacy as an argument which makes probability that you never really thought about it or experienced it quite high. It's difficult to assess from within the bubble so what about reading posts of people who experienced it here, at other places on the Internet or looking at the studies which were done ?

/rant

[candydance]

Exactly. The most successful lothario in my university class was a short guy who went to the gym 5 days a week, had exceptional grooming and was extremely confident/comfortable around women. Height is a very small factor in these things.

Not to mention fringe benefits of being short. Relatively, EVERYTHING IS BIGGER. This idea alone makes me want to try being smaller for a day. Fitting on beds, fitting in airplanes, all food portions are bigger, cars are more spacious.

Also, you'll live longer statistically.