[unclebucknasty]

Man, this just misses the point by miles and is consistent with the cynical narrative that the Republicans are now trying desparately to establish. That is, "the Constitution grants Congress the power of the purse, blah, blah, blah".

The bottom line is that the action of shutting down the government as a means of forcing a completely unrelated concession from the White House/Senate is just plain wrong and damn near extortionate. They put the ACA to a vote 43 times since its passage and couldn't do anything with it. You really think it's healthy Constitutional politics to then subvert that expression of the people's will by inflicting harm on the entire country unless they meet your demands?

But, if you want to pull out the Constitution, then cool: let Mr. Boehner put it to an up-down vote so that the will of all of the people can be expressed via their elected representatives. But, what is this handful of people shutting down the government nonsense?

The past five years have nothing to do with this. Both parties are not at fault. Both houses are not at fault. A small minority of Republicans and a gutless Speaker are at fault. Period. Anything else is just a cynical red herring. Discussing the merits of the ACA in the context of the shutdown simply indicates that you're either following the red herring or dragging it.

BTW, yes, I voted for Obama and have had mixed feelings on his performance. But, this truly rises above partisan politics to what's good for the country. Just a handful of people are ready to burn the place down for one very narrow ideological obsession. There is a real threat/problem here that should concern everyone.

[bmelton]

> BTW, just because you're "not a Republican", it certainly > doesn't mean that you're non-partisan. Either way, you seem > awfully defensive for a non-Republican.

Mostly, I'm just sick of seeing both sides make the same talking points over and over again to see which one's soundbites happen to stick better. As much as you discredit Boehner for disallowing an up or down vote, Reid is doing the exactly the same thing with the memorial funding, FEMA funding, etc., etc., but the pot still calls the kettle black, and only because they're ahead in the polls.

If they weren't polling ahead, they'd have already begun the process of concession and started actually funding the government, or at least the vast majority of it, and could take the Obamacare fight separately, which is one that the House is sure to lose anyway.

Most of the people that I've seen getting upset at the Republicans about this are upset because they're proponents of Obamacare, and most of the people I've seen getting upset at the Democrats are just doing so on party lines. The House is almost perfectly divided on party lines over this, but have seen minor bi-partisan support on the individual funding bills, which the Senate refuses to entertain, only because they're winning the popularity contest.

Regardless, onlookers have generally claimed their stake in the war based on the politics they already had, with both sides buying into the bullshit talking points that their elected representatives have manufactured.

Yes, Boehner could probably end this with a single up / down vote on a "clean" CR, but he's certainly not obligated to.

Yes, Reid could probably end this with a few procedural votes, but he's also not obligated to.

Obama could also end this by offering a little bit of non-confrontational advice to either side, but he's not obligated to.

Of those, I really only criticize the Executive Branch, because I do feel that a large portion of his job is to be one of unification, for which he has failed at in his second term, and having witnessed his negotiation style with Boehner post-election, it was not one of concession.

The idea that the Senate should get a "clean" CR just because they want it is equally as farcical as the idea that the House should get a concession bill passed in which Obamacare is delayed.

The middle ground happens to be the area in which I think the House somewhat inadvertently stumbled into, which is the piecemeal legislation, but looking through history, that is the regular order on how these things tend to be organized where both wings are far apart on the '100%' solution... and the Senate refuses to entertain that.

If I seem nonplussed by the affair, it's not because of any kinship with the Republicans, but because I'd personally like to see our government be less efficient, as I suspect very heavily that is what our founders would prefer. A slow moving government is in the best interests of liberty, and I'd much rather see bills take far longer to hash out than to have trillions of dollars in spending or taxes approved with an uncontested procedural vote.

Edit: And I had to add this, but thinking I'm a member of the opposition party because I'm not in 100% agreement with your party does nothing but affirm my pessimism about thoughtful politics in the US. Not that you should care, per se, but there are people out there who try to reason their way into the intelligent side of any issue, without bothering to check and see which way they're "supposed" to feel based on party lines. That isn't an accusation to you, or anybody here, so much as a signal that both sides are wrong about as much as they're right, and we shouldn't feel "loyalty" to politicians that we like enough that we should support them when they're wrong, and vice versa.

[unclebucknasty]

Your post illustrates a big part of the problem. There is all of this false equivalence, wherein the proposition is made that both sides are equally at fault. The media is guilty too (at least the outlets that make some attempt at coming off as balanced). They attempt to lay equal blame, even when one side is clearly nuts. When such false equivalence is made, it exonerates abhorrent, harmful behavior and gives cover to those who practice it.

And, that's what's happening here. You are posing as a thoughtful centrist, when in actuality, you are equivocating. No one could look at this objectively and conclude that it's reasonable or healthy behavior for our country. That's what gives you away, contrary to your assertion that I believe you to be "of the opposition" simply because you don't agree with me 100%.

Even more thoughtful, saner Republicans like Pete King are going on record as hating this insane gambit. It is splitting the Republican party itself right in two, and is the source of serious party infighting. So, your assertion that people are merely digging in based on their prior positions is patently false. Likewise, polling shows that something like 70% of those who oppose the ACA don't want the government shutdown over it. So ironically, it is your own willful blindness to these facts and subsequent assumption that I must simply oppose what the Tea Party is doing due to my party affiliation, that further reveals that you are as partisan as they come.

Edit: You're trying to decry partisan politics, when you're just as engaged as anyone. You want to come off as a wise sage who floats above it, when you're really right in the middle.  When you walk around assuming that everyone is engaged in partisanship vs. thoughtful politics and branding them accordingly (especially when they disagree with you), then what, exactly, does that make you?

There are valid points to be made against the ACA. I believe that on balance it is a big step in the right direction, but will certainly need to be tweaked. So, when I see sane Republicans discuss it, I respect and hear their opinions. But, this is something else. That's what many Republicans are saying in private--and some publicly--along with much of the nation.

I will be the first to agree--along with 90% of the country--that our politics are dysfunctional. I am also weary of this bipolar system that produces such entrenchment. But, the difference is that while there are extremist fringe elements on both the left and right, those on the right are now actually driving a major political party. Ignoring this very obvious fact that even Republicans acknowledge to their chagrin, does not fix our politics. In fact, it just makes you a tacit endorser of their extremist, partisan behavior and furthers the divide.