[pak]

Here's a question for the techno-libertarians stepping up to say the government has no right to shut down sites like Silk Road. Where do you derive this supposed natural right for anonymity on the internet? Life, liberty, freedom from discrimination, due process--these things I understand, and there are well supported philosophical frameworks (rule utilitarian, Kantian, libertarian etc.) for deriving them from first principles. I can also understand a society guaranteeing a right to privacy in limited circumstances: crimes affecting children are one obvious example, records of education and medical treatment are another. In each such situation, the benefits, harms and impact on the rights of the public and the individual have been weighed.

But an anonymous free-for-all exchange being a natural right? We aren't born anonymous. In the "state of nature," without government, we are in no way anonymous. The fact that the internet sometimes allows us to be is in fact a very artificial circumstance that society has allowed to happen. Whether we like it or not, governments are ultimately the overseers that permit networking infrastructure comprising the internet to be built. That isn't some natural right any more than building a nuclear weapon in my backyard is a natural right. Society has weighed the pros and cons and decided that this particular set of technologies is on the whole good. That it might in fact want to limit the level of anonymity on the network seems reasonable, in the same way that making people put license plates on their cars is reasonable.

I'm not supporting the idea of a government ID to access the internet (although some first-world countries already require some level of this), or nationwide surveillance a la China or the NSA. Anonymity no doubt has societal benefit, in that it has fostered great works of creativity (from Mark Twain down through Anonymous). Unfortunately, society depends on accountability, and accountability and anonymity are competing principles in the construction of a just society. Neither of them are natural rights on their own.

[revelation]

People seem to forget this is just the internet. It's a communications medium. Anonymity in communications are certainly not a unique feature of the internet, you can hide your caller id, and a letter will still arrive without a return address. The basic idea being that you can't shoot someone in the face by merely communicating, and I'm pretty sure you can still not commit a violent crime over the internet alone. Communication mediums are the safest thing in the whole wide world.

Your whole intellectual stance from which you approach this topic is off. History is very clear on this: the biggest enemies of justice have been governments and state sponsored entities, every single time. The concept of "natural rights" is motivated by protection against the government.

[VladRussian2]

>The concept of "natural rights" is motivated by protection against the government.

yes, there is no natural rights in Nature, except may be the right to run as fast as one able to away from the next up in the food chain.

The current stage of human society is akin to a situation when a pack of predators and a herd of prey make an agreement that the prey willn't be hunted as long as it stays withing specified bounds. The pack will also protect the herd there from other predators. It is a win-win for both parties - the prey get relaxed and spend all its energy grazing and procreating and thus becomes fatter and the herd's headcount grows tremendously (the bounds were extended several times and now it is a pretty complicated patchwork), while predators hunt smaller percentage (the ones who can't keep themselves inside the bounds) of the much bigger herd of much fatter/slower/tastier prey with total amount of meat consumed by predators being higher than before the agreement.

The herd with time starts to believe that not being hunted down while inside the bounds is the natural right.

The predators sometimes can't resist and snatch some very tasty prey from inside the bounds - as long as such transgressions are kept below some low percentage, the herd wouldn't make big fuss of it to avoid risk of destabilizing of the agreement that works so great for the herd (true story, some members of the herd even have time and energy now to develop various theories about the thing they call Universe and why a prey and a predator got created(or evolved?)) .

[rayiner]

I think your predator/herd dichotomy creates a needless dichotomy, and also goes outside the bounds of its own analogy (predators and prey obviously don't agree in the state of nature, and in the presence of a fat herd the predators would multiply out of control until the herd thinned). I don't think it captures the relevant dynamics.

How I tend to view things is that humans are inherently pack animals. We are individually pretty weak and prone to being victimized, but organized together in a pack under leadership we can pretty much run the show. While, acting as a mob, we can always kill the leaders, the natural state of our existence is a very bloody anarchy so we avoid doing that unless absolutely necessary.

See, e.g., the French Revolution.

[VladRussian2]

>predator/herd dichotomy creates a needless dichotomy

"predator" is a role, it is the one who uses force/violence as a tool.

>predators and prey obviously don't agree in the state of nature

exactly. It took about million years of evolution for humans to get to the state where they became able to produce current agreement between predators and prey (i.e. some kind of government and society). Once they did, the humans took over the planet.

>the natural state of our existence is a very bloody anarchy

nope. At least during last hundred thousand of years (and well before), humans (the Cro-Magnon we're as well as other humans) have pretty much always had tribal organization. As you said yourself: "How I tend to view things is that humans are inherently pack animals. " Pack/tribe isn't anarchy. It is first and explicit step away from it.

>See, e.g., the French Revolution.

that isn't natural state. That is exactly what happens when predators transgress beyond the patience limit of the herd and the herd gets angry enough to throw out the agreement. It is also shows that such unnatural for humans situation wouldn't go for long, and the new pack would naturally emerge and the herd would rush into new agreement.

[pak]

Both of your points are hyperbolic claims with no warrant.

> Communication mediums are the safest thing in the whole wide world.

Even though this is a strawman, since my arguing to the contrary does nothing to support that anonymity is or isn't a natural right, you're still completely wrong. Perhaps I can't literally shoot someone with a computer, but all kinds of violence is inflicted by communication. You can harass, threaten, and blackmail simply by communicating. The internet has been used to inflict sexual abuse, aid hate crime, and transmit child pornography. It can also be used to steal, commit fraud, and induce an unsafe panic (think of shouting fire in a crowded theater). These are all non-physical but violent acts; incidentally, anonymity aids in perpetrating every one of them. Saying that the internet is inherently safe, much less the safest thing in the whole wide world, is patently false.

> History is very clear on this: the biggest enemies of justice have been governments and state sponsored entities, every single time.

Perhaps you can add up the numbers and claim that more suffering has been inflicted in total by governments (in the course of wars, or whatever, some of which were more justifiable than others) rather than isolated individuals. You'd have a serious sampling bias, though, because we generally owe recorded history to the presence of a government, and people seem to have preferred throughout recorded history to form governments rather than live as individuals. So while this is a nice setup for an anarchistic manifesto, unless you are seriously willing to give up government and then move to Antarctica (which has pretty bad Internet, I'm told), it doesn't really make sense for this discussion.

[etherael]

> Perhaps you can add up the numbers and claim that more suffering has been inflicted in total by governments (in the course of wars, or whatever, some of which were more justifiable than others) rather than isolated individuals.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democide

His research shows that the death toll from democide is far greater than the death toll from war. After studying over 8,000 reports of government-caused deaths, Rummel estimates that there have been 262 million victims of democide in the last century. According to his figures, six times as many people have died from the actions of people working for governments than have died in battle.

[malandrew]

So what you're saying is that the internet is a tool, and like all tools they can be used for both good and evil. That being said, how is it different from a knife that can be used as easily to cut food to murder someone? We don't regulate knives despite the danger they occasionally present. We value the convenience and utility of being able to acquires knives whenever, wherever and for whatever we want more than the safety afforded by regulating knives to prevent stabbings. The internet is an even more versatile tool than knives and regulating it will do more harm than good.

[jellicle]

> History is very clear on this: the biggest enemies of justice have been governments and state sponsored entities, every single time.

If that were true, which it isn't, why did humanity create governments?

[smokeyj]

> why did humanity create governments?

The same reason "humanity" created mafias and gangs -- which is to use violence as a means of economic control.

[quadrangle]

It's as or more reasonable to say that governments evolved out of the need to mediate conflicts between people living in groups.

[manicbovine]

This is also a more reasonable explanation for organized crime, seeing as how criminals cannot rely on the government to mediate criminal disputes.

[quadrangle]

Organized crime has its own internal governance, hence "organized". So that's no different.

[ardeay]

We have a HIVE mentality, as much as we try to hide it with personalization. It is the truth. We work together. WE WORK TOGETHER.

[gboudrias]

Is that a quote or are you yelling at your monitor?

[clarkmoody]

  That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted
  among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent 
  of the governed,

[jessaustin]

"Humanity" doesn't do anything. Humans do all sorts of things. Why do wolves form packs?

[mahyarm]

Because violence exists.

[saraid216]

> The concept of "natural rights" is motivated by protection against the government.

That's why natural rights are so difficult to defend. Their entire basis is anti-change.

[samolang]

Their basis is against coercion. There are other ways to effect change beside coercion.

[saraid216]

Yes, there are. Fires, earthquakes, and tornadoes.

[john_b]

> "We aren't born anonymous. In the "state of nature," without government, we are in no way anonymous."

Using "natural states of being", however defined, to articulate rights in unnatural states of being (i.e. modern society) is a fallacy. It presumes that a natural state of being naturally endows people with all their rights, and that the arbitrary social systems that have evolved on top of that natural state have systematically deprived people of those rights. In some cases, this has happened, but it is not an inviolable law.

For example, in the "state of nature" women are born weaker than men, but that doesn't mean that men have a right to drag them back to the cave and do what they want with them.

> "Society has weighed the pros and cons and decided that this particular set of technologies is on the whole good. That it might in fact want to limit the level of anonymity on the network seems reasonable, in the same way that making people put license plates on their cars is reasonable."

"Society" is not a monolithic, homogeneous organism whose will is absolute and omniscient. Society is composed of many subcultures with differing ideologies that change over time. "Society" has not decided to "limit the level of anonmymity" on the internet; it is only some factions within it that believe that should be done. The worrying aspect is that these factions often promote it as a public good (using the same "societal consensus" language you have invoked) that only fringe groups like terrorists and pedophiles oppose. As long as indifferent factions (which most ordinary people fall into) are more swayed by this kind of fear mongering than by a desire to prevent the machinery of the destruction of their rights from being built, the minority faction that argues that privacy is unnecessary or even dangerous will exert a disproportionate level of control over our entire society.

[pak]

> Using "natural states of being", however defined, to articulate rights in unnatural states of being (i.e. modern society) is a fallacy.

You're absolutely right, I'm muddling the concept of natural rights by doing that. (John Locke would be very disappointed.) The point I was trying to make was that many people do not realize that anonymity is something that society has to actually construct infrastructure for and support. To justify doing that, anonymity would either have to be deemed a "natural right" (something society considers every citizen is justly due, like in the US Bill of Rights) or the benefits and disadvantages must be weighed in every circumstance. I'm claiming that it is the latter and questioning why techno-libertarians usually assume the former. Then I'm raising that possibility that the calculus may just work out against allowing anonymity on some common communication mediums like the Internet.

As to your second point, yes, I agree that fear-mongering is unfortunately one of the many ways that minority viewpoints can hold sway over the public debate. I can't see much of a solution to it except time and a more robust democratic system, where you hope that eventually reason and the silent majority will prevail.

[macspoofing]

>Here's a question for the techno-libertarians stepping up to say the government has no right to shut down sites like Silk Road...Where do you derive this supposed natural right for anonymity on the internet

Techno-libertarians would care more about the right of individuals to freely trade with each other. Anonymity is merely a necessary component of trading controlled substances under an oppressive regime.

I think most libertarians would agree there is no intrinsic right to anonymity.

[john_b]

> "I think most libertarians would agree there is no intrinsic right to anonymity."

As a libertarian, I disagree. The ability to converse, trade, and move about privately is intrinsically necessary to support other fundamental rights. In my view, anonymity (which is just a special case of privacy where a person chooses to reveal no personal information) as an intrinsic right is derived from this necessity.

[return0]

> there is no intrinsic right to anonymity

wouldn't the opposite be against individual liberty?

[betterunix]

"Where do you derive this supposed natural right for anonymity on the internet?"

From the natural right to free speech. Anonymity systems rely on people transmitting particular messages in particular ways, whether online or offline. When someone makes an anonymous statement to a newspaper, they do so with the assistance of the reporter who writes the article -- that reporter is repeating what someone else said, and not publishing the person's name. Tor, anonymous remailers, and related systems all operate on the same principle: by running a Tor relay or a remailer, you are agreeing to repeat the contents of a message without its headers.

"Whether we like it or not, governments are ultimately the overseers that permit networking infrastructure comprising the internet to be built"

True, but only on a technicality -- the government also allows us to have computers in the first place. The truth is that we do not need the government to "allow" the Internet; the Internet would be a lot slower without the government allowing fiber and coax to be put along public streets, but we could have built an Internet of point-to-point wireless links without having to ask permission (using only ISM bands, IR, and optical systems, for example). The government could outlaw such things, but that does not mean that the lack of such laws is an allowance, unless you think that all your rights are things the government allows (how dare you breath without thanking the government for allowing it?!).

[pak]

> From the natural right to free speech.

Hmm, I like where you started with this, particularly in suggesting that a free press requires anonymous sources and authors. It is really interesting to see how the Supreme Court has historically balanced this societal interest against individual rights in cases on e.g. libel, slander, whistleblowers, and so on. The tricky part is in claiming that all of this applies to the extent that you believe to communication specifically on the internet. One could argue, and this is the justification for the earliest wiretapping laws for phone systems, that electronic communications increase convenience but also the potential for abuse, and if people need sacrosanct anonymity there is nothing preventing them from sticking to meatspace communication methods.

This is kind of like the conflict between rights granted for free movement within the U.S. and the security requirements for travelers to show ID before boarding planes, etc. Is plane travel a natural extension of the right to free movement, or can you safely tell such people they need to walk, drive, etc.? It is a tricky call.

> we could have built an Internet of point-to-point wireless links... The government could outlaw such things, but that does not mean that the lack of such laws is an allowance, unless you think that all your rights are things the government allows

Also an interesting point, but within a certain context, isn't it hard to separate what I'm allowed to do from the government's protection of my doing so? This is the problem that less-government people face when waving their hands and claiming that everything could still work. It is hard to comprehend how much the collective safety and regulation of common goods provided by the current system affects what we currently do. For instance, if everybody started making microwave dishes that burned each other's pets and gave people cancer, I think we would begin to regulate those ISM bands more tightly. When I breath, am I not breathing clean air because the government won't let the factory down the street burn rubber tires out in the open and my neighbors from building or buying cars that spew fumes? I'm getting kind of hyperbolic here, but I guess my point is that the Internet that would exist with ZERO government support, and that includes eliminating all the transactions of currency for goods that keep those net-meshed wireless routers and computers running, creates a very different picture of the Internet from the one that exists now, if it would even function at all.

[ferdo]

> governments are ultimately the overseers that permit networking infrastructure comprising the internet to be built...society depends on accountability

There are two conflicting thoughts here. If we're not entitled to the same anonymity that those spying on us have, then we're servants, not members of a just society.

We can have a government as overseer of communications or we can have a just society. We can't have both.

It's an adage so old that it seems trite but it's still true: We can have Liberty or Security but if we pick Security over Liberty, we'll lose both.

[slg]

>We can have Liberty or Security but if we pick Security over Liberty, we'll lose both.

I hate this false dichotomy. It simply isn't true as we give up a wide range of liberties in order to live in a safer world. That is what laws inherently are, rules that limit an individuals ability for the greater good of society. Whether is it preventing people from driving down a highway at 100 mph, whether they can grow and consume marijuana, or whether they can expect that all their internet communication is 100% private, we simply need to do an analysis of the costs and benefits to figure out if a particular liberty is worth giving up to give us a particular level of safety.

[macspoofing]

>I hate this false dichotomy.

No it isn't. By and large there is actually a trade off.

>we simply need to do an analysis of the costs and benefits to figure out if a particular liberty is worth giving up to give us a particular level of safety.

The fact that there may be some worth in trading some liberty for some security, doesn't negate the fact that a trade did indeed happen. Apart from that, this is an incredibly naive statement. Humans aren't perfectly rational beings. Political decisions are emotional and driven by pressures from wide variety of stakeholders (who themselves are driven by self-interest, ideology, bias, religion etc.)

[ferdo]

> That is what laws inherently are, rules that limit an individuals ability for the greater good of society.

Not to be unkind, but this is a simplistic view of law and realpolitiks. As an example, can you honestly say that arresting hundreds of thousands of peaceful weed smokers annually is a "greater good"?

[slg]

I should have thrown the word perceived in there. I don't necessarily think it is for the greater good, but I am not sure if that is the overall perception today and certainly wasn't when those laws were created.

[ferdo]

In the 1930's, people traded the liberty of growing hemp for the security of keeping stoned black jazz musicians from raping their daughters (that was one of the reasons put forth by Harry Anslinger[1] in the era). We see how that trade has worked out, much as giving up the liberty of privacy for the security of government oversight of communications has put us where we are now.

Point being that the liberty/security trade isn't a false dichotomy.

[1] "Most marijuana smokers are Negroes, Hispanics, jazz musicians, and entertainers. Their satanic music is driven by marijuana, and marijuana smoking by white women makes them want to seek sexual relations with Negroes, entertainers, and others. It is a drug that causes insanity, criminality, and death — the most violence-causing drug in the history of mankind."

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Harry_J._Anslinger

[tptacek]

People have also traded the liberty of selling contaminated meat for the security of minimizing deaths due to foodborne pathogens. That trade seems to have worked out well.

People have also traded the liberty of people able to discard carcinogenic industrial waste wherever they please for the security of the world's most reliable potable water delivery systems. That trade seems to have worked out well.

He's right, and you're wrong. The simplistic argument is the one that draws a sharp line between security and liberty. It's incumbent on both sides to defend the security/freedom principles on a case-by-case basis.

[superuser2]

Your problem here isn't with government, it's with Republicans (and conservative Democrats) who do believe that arresting pot smokers is a greater good.

[sliverstorm]

The main problem is people twist the quote, change its meaning almost entirely, and still posit it to be an authentic quote.

Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

Those qualifiers change the meaning dramatically- Essential Liberty, Temporary Safety

[betterunix]

"That is what laws inherently are, rules that limit an individuals ability for the greater good of society"

That is a description of just and fair laws. Unfortunately many of today's laws are neither just nor fair. You gave a good example:

"...grow and consume marijuana..."

[MattyRad]

The issue at hand for "techno-libertarians" is not necessarily about privacy, but rather about life and property.

There are three issues that libertarians will tend to agree are most important, which is usually summarized with being a natural right to life, liberty, and property.

1) The government forces companies to hand over customer information (property).

2) The government forcibly outlaws citizens to engage in certain commerce (property).

3) The government forcibly bars people from consuming goods they want (life).

To greatly summarize these three issues:

1) Whether the data is considered to be owned by the company or ourselves, either way it is private property and should have an extremely high barrier to acquire through a warrant.

2) Free trade is an obviously libertarian principle.

3) You own your body, and you are free to consume unhealthy substances as such, which is a fairly accepted natural right.

Privacy in an of itself is not necessarily a natural right, rather, the data owned by you or a company is considered private property.

[mrbgty]

The idea that we aren't naturally born anonymous is a little frustrating. We aren't born anonymous to everyone but we're born anonymous to most people we don't have a personal relationship with. Those we have personal relationships with have more reason to not do us harm than some organization on the other side of the world.

[ArbitraryLimits]

> But an anonymous free-for-all exchange being a natural right? We aren't born anonymous. In the "state of nature," without government, we are in no way anonymous.

No one's ever been 100% anonymous in the physical world before, but by the same token the government can't watch 100% of what 100% of all the people do in the physical world either.

On the Internet apparently the only way to make sure you can be anonymous _ever_ is to make it so you're anonymous _always_.

[manicbovine]

But the Silk Road wasn't truly anonymous because buyers had to disclose their address to at least one person. It's surprising that so many people were willing to send their addresses to anonymous criminals who could, at any time, turn into DEA informants. Furthermore, vendors must mail the package; seeing as how it's not terribly hard to see where packages come from, many vendors are probably vulnerable to simple surveillance of some mailboxes in a region.

These people were only getting away with it because law enforcement lacks the resolve and infrastructure to prosecute small scale buyers. To put this another way, we could hold them accountable, or at least introduce risk associated costs into the system, but law enforcement choose not to. (After browsing SR enthusiast forums, it starts to seem as if the whole community is predicated on the common belief that buyers are immune from risk... it's delusional!) If I'm wrong, and it's not so easy to bust these people, then I'm sure we'd just legislate a solution.

I'm getting at this: Real world actions do not automatically become anonymous because they're coordinated online. That's not my most brilliant observation, but the consequence is that, aside from digital crimes (DDOS, website defacement, copyright infringement, child porn), internet anonymity doesn't generally enable us to significantly screw up the so-called meatworld with complete unaccountability unless we're exploiting the government's technological time-lag.

So when I talk about internet anonymity, I'm trying to speak of our right to communicate anonymously. That's it. I think the same is true for most people.

Finally, I just want to add that "natural rights" have no scientific basis in our current understanding of the universe. Objectively, cultures confer rights to their members; it's probably an adaptive mechanism involving many factors. In a strict materialist and scientific world, "natural right" is a broken concept.

[smacktoward]

> the Silk Road wasn't truly anonymous because buyers had to disclose their address to at least one person.

Did they really? I never used Silk Road so I can't say from experience, but it seems like it'd be more likely that they had to disclose an address, not necessarily their address. Like, "ship it to this P.O. Box" would qualify as disclosing an address, without necessarily giving up their actual place of residence.

If Silk Road (or sellers using Silk Road to connect with buyers) was actually verifying addresses and then requiring people to post their real, legal place of residence, that's just... wow. I'm trying to imagine how dumb you would have to be to agree to that when you know what you're about to do is illegal. Pretty dumb!

EDIT: Though now I'm wondering, if the DEA were able to track a drug transaction back to a P.O. box, how hard it would be for them to get the name and legal address of the person who took it out. Would they need a warrant? Are there anonymous mailbox services?

[manicbovine]

I misstated that.

For whatever reason, that community generally believes that it's a liability to have the drugs sent to a false address or PO Box. I think they're relying on being able to plausibly deny that the drugs were mailed to their house by mistake, which doesn't hold up if you're observed collecting drugs from some other location.

Regarding your question about the mailbox services, I don't think there is any mailbox service that escapes the reaches of the DEA. I've actually been wondering what the next evolution of the Silk Road would look like if law enforcement decides to target the mail. I think this is interesting because whatever method the SR community works out has the potential to lower the cost of fairly normal economic behavior in totalitarian regimes by introducing the threat of a cheap black market, thereby undermining the government's power to tax. It will be fascinating to see mechanisms and effects of a technologically coordinated black market, delivery and all.

[karzeem]

The other responses to this would probably be agreeable to most "techno-libertarians", but I don't think they're quite correct as to how this natural right is derived.

They don't actually posit a natural right to anonymity specifically. The core idea is that the only moral use of force is self-defense. Therefore, it would be immoral for people to use force against you (in this system, laws are considered force because the government backs them with the threat of arrest) if you're not using force against them.

"Anonymous communication being a non-violent act, it is immoral to use force to suppress anonymous communication" ~= "the government has no right to shut down sites like Silk Road"

[jmilloy]

My first reaction is that fallacies and double standards abound, in this brief description. Can you point me to a more in depth reference, so I can inform myself before trying to reply?

For example: Is it moral to aid someone in their self defense? How are groups of people treated in relation to individual people? Under what circumstances, if any, is responsibility transferable? At what point are my actions no longer force (even though the results of my actions might be)?

[karzeem]

Good questions, there are disagreements on those points even among libertarians. It's tough to name a single digestible reference because this is such a broad subject. But this one is pretty comprehensive: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-aggression_principle

[jmilloy]

Okay, thanks. Some of the references from the article are good, too.

It's more or less clear how to apply the principle when two individuals interact. People form groups, however, both explicitly and implicitly. If I am part of a group that violates another's rights, am I still not accountable if I am not actually the individual(s) who does the physical act?

[return0]

Is there such a thing as "natural right"? Isn't everything that can exist natural?

'Accountability' is sort of relative though: Nobody would disagree that a hit man should be held accountable for murder, but what about the random person who bought some recreational drugs? In this case , one could claim that anonymity protects the person from unjustified but lawful prosecution. What would be the reaction if if silk road had restricted itself to sale of recreational drugs only? Would it be just to shut it down?

[pfortuny]

There are two different concerns here which I think your abstract setting is mixing, probably involuntarily:

a) Privacy and secrecy are part of normal personal relations. Any means of communication can be used to maintain secret conversations and this is something one should strive for because confidence and trust between individuals cannot exist in a never-private environment.

b) On the other hand, the need for society to regulate contracts is there. A contract is not (has never been, at least in the West) a secret affair: it is something which society recognizes and whose terms can only be enforced if the mutual agreement is in some sense "public" (i.e. if it can be naturally known by society). So secret contracts cannot be lawful and in this I agree with you that secrecy in "civil" matters makes no sense (you would need a "secret police" and/or "secret judges" to enforce contracts, that is a parallel society, which as mafias have proved time and again, is a problem, not a solution).

So privacy and secrecy are natural and necessary for interpersonal non-public (i.e. extra legal) relations. Not so for "public"/"civil"/"contractual"... ones.

Notice that buying and selling is a "contractual" relationship (i.e. a willful, free, interchange of benefits with possible adverse consequences. It is the adverse consequences that require the legal environment and their being "public"/"accountable for").

[carbocation]

There is a longstanding tradition of pseudonymous public communication. The Internet didn't invent anonymity (though that's unfairly dismissive of your point). Anonymity probably goes back as far as our ability to communicate in written language and probably before then (not that we could have any such record).

[fjabre]

I think we're off topic. This is more about the war on drugs and how it's an epic fail and continues to be.

I'm a techno-libertarian and I hope that one day all drugs will be legal again, albeit highly regulated and taxed so we can all reap the benefits of that market instead of wasting trillions trying to suppress it.

[ctb_mg]

This is a very valid question and one worth thinking about. For one side, I would submit the following points for discussion.

Accountability is indeed important for society, but lately it seems governments have been immune to accountability.

It would be nice if we were able to sustain a happy medium on the internet where identity could be known and also have no need to be afraid of persecution for legal actions (aka, being placed on a "watch list").

However, I don't see the world governments heading in that direction. With interest in wide scale surveillance, they are building the framework for a minority-report style pre-crime system.

So it seems we may need to protect ourselves from this using anonymity. I won't mind being accountable for my opinions when the governments themselves become accountable for ignoring "innocent until proven guilty".

[etherael]

> Life, liberty, freedom from discrimination, due process--these things I understand, and there are well supported philosophical frameworks (rule utilitarian, Kantian, libertarian etc.) for deriving them from first principles.

Well, if you take liberty as an understandable goal worth pursuing; true free speech is only possible when the speaker is anonymous, that is, free from the repercussions of anything that they have said so they are able to say anything that they desire or believe.

In exactly the same way, true free markets are only possible when the participants are anonymous. Of course, some random anonymous person speaking freely or attempting to engage in commerce with you on the net is extremely suspect at first glance, but just because you can't link a person's speech or market activity to a meatspace identity to point a gun at, doesn't mean that person can't accrue a reputation for accurate analysis in speech or fair dealings in a market.

Look at Bitcoin itself for an example of the reputation of anonymity; Nobody knows who Satoshi Nakamoto is, but he has a reputation far beyond that of your average random anonymous person if he chose to use his keys again to launch or endorse any other project. Silk road, Black market reloaded and the newly activated proxy stock ownership services on Tor similarly allowed people to accrue market reputations which had real value and were linked to an identity that they controlled, but simultaneously did not paint a target on their backs for people who wanted to sanction or extort them with violence in meatspace.

In both examples, true free speech and true free markets are only enabled by breaking the link between an entity and their meatspace representation which is extremely vulnerable to coercion vs their cryptospace representation which has almost unlimited free reign to do and say what they choose within that cryptospace without vulnerability to coercion.

This is the ideal being pursued by anonymous cryptocurrency denominated markets; freedom from the friction of predatory parasitic elements that prey upon existing semi-free markets coupled with the ability to still hold market actors to account for their actions by way of their building a digital reputation and that reputation being a thing that they value and protect.

So, if you value REAL free markets and REAL free speech, anonymity should be a desirable goal.

[gobengo]

There is a difference between arguing in favor of a natural right vs a civil right, and both are valid things to argue for in a society.

natural - I have an inherent, inalienable right to this civil - Regardless of if its natrual, I only want to live in a nation that has this other right protected. So I'll fight for it.

Your argument assumes that techno-libertarians are only arguing a 'natural right' toward anonymity.

[malandrew]

    "In the "state of nature," without government, we are in 
    no way anonymous."

Not really true. Pre-government issued ids, you could literally walk into many towns all over the world and people would simple have to trust that you say you are who you are. That was the ultimate anonymity, since all identification proffered up could only be done voluntarily.