[saturdaysaint]

This kind of incrementalism is pretty fundamental to all seduction. I mean, the story is obviously disturbing but if I'm being honest, I used the same principles in my single days. Being too direct is a huge turn off so artfully and gradually escalating the romantic and sexual undercurrents of an interaction is where much of seduction hinges. Tactful flattery and sincere interest are certainly helpful there and also need to be ramped up artfully.

I mean, hearing about a gay guy doing this creeps me out as a straight guy, but really a lot of this is going on in bars as we speak and is generally a mutually satisfying experience.

[vidarh]

> Being too direct is a huge turn off so

Yes, and no. Being "too direct" can be fantastically effective if you can back it up with sufficient confidence, and can manage to make it look natural rather than creepy.

It works exactly because the confidence and making it look natural thing is rare enough to make you stand out in a way that often produces very rapid and strong attraction. E.g. in a bar, it shocked me years ago when I realised how easy it is to get random women to make out with you just by going up to them and telling them you want to, and start to lean in slowly but surely (slowly, because unless you want things to end badly you want to make sure it is easy for her to leave/tell you to fuck off or similar if she doesn't want to). And often your best bet is actually when you get rejected initially. That is when you really prove whether you're just confident and having fun vs. being a creepy: if you laugh it off and seem to not care, it amps attraction; if you act as if you were caught doing something bad, she will treat you as if you were caught doing something bad.

But the fundamental difference is end-goal: It is "easy" to create quick, strong rushes of attraction (e.g. lifting a woman up on the dance floor and swirl her around out of the blue; or help an old lady across the road in front of her or any number of simple things can amp attraction massively), but the quick rushes of attraction subside equally quickly if you can't keep up the tempo (and most of us have no hope in hell of that).

The systematic, incremental approach on the other hand is much easier to make last: You don't just amp up attraction, which can be very fleeting, but you get her (or him) used to acting a certain way around you, and you around her/him, and you get the person used to complying, and used to acting a certain way around you, and our desire for consistency is intensely strong and helps reinforce our willingness (or desire) to act the same way. People also tend to mirror the strongest "frame": If the person with the most confident demeanour acts as if someone is totally natural, people will tend to "fall in line" and accept it as natural too (and then rationalise why to themselves even if they are totally unaware of any reason). Couple that with innate desires to please and for attention etc. and it becomes scarily powerful in the wrong hands...

[saturdaysaint]

Yeah, there's certainly an 'art' to being direct as well.

So having said that, it's kind of tricky to pinpoint what was creepy about this guy and what's kind of fair game.

I mean, my feeling is that it's almost anachronistic to get worked up about this in 2013. Before he killed anybody, this guy got off the hook incredibly easy for drugging/raping a minor (and getting caught red handed!), as I understand was often the exception more than the rule before the 1980's. There was a recent story about how a lot of the decrease in crime is partly due to smaller gateway crimes like car theft becoming less common - I wonder if society's more vigilant stance on rape in recent decades could have had a similar effect.

Also, as common as it is to hate social networks, how much safer would this guy be if they'd done the standard 'Hey, you're cool, let's add eachother on Facebook' or 'Can you text me your address'? A minimal digital 'paper trail' would probably give a guy like this a lot of pause, and if he'd been hesitant/weird about those interactions, it'd probably be even more of a clue for even a young guy.

[hosh]

What makes someone creepy has nothing to do with the guy who comes off as creepy. Creepiness is an internal experience indicating that you (the person feeling creeped out) are uncomfortable and disturbed.

In this case, I would hazard most straight guys who read this article and feel disturbed are disturbed that someone can induce a state of homosexual attraction within them. Further, aside from the obvious fear of homosexual attraction, there's also the empathy for women who are subjected to methods like this.

It's easy to rationalize some form of this behavior as "fair game". Would you still consider it fair game if you put yourself in that Marine's shoes, or in a woman's shoes, being subject to methods like this? Maybe, maybe not.

The sociopath sees his victims as an object, as something that he can play with and exercises his power. He gets off on being able to take a straight guy -- and I suppose, one idealized in the form of an ultra-macho Marine -- and seduce him, the power to turn him into something he is not. (Then kill him).

No one likes being treated like an object.

I've seen this kind of rationalization in many of the pick-up artist material, rendering the person into an object. Sometimes, the rationalization covers up their own sense of helplessness and impotency ("Stop putting women on a pedestal!" "Some people are afraid of the power of these techniques!") But that covers up the main issue: there's a particular shadow side to masculinity, where lust consumes the brain and the person who attracted you stops being a person and becomes an object to fulfill that lust. Further, it is related to another shadow side, that men want to feel that they have power over women and can conquer them. (And likewise, some women know this and exploit this emotional vulnerability).

There is some wisdom in the sociopath, in particular, being detached from being consumed by impulses and emotions. Sociopaths though, lack empathy. They lack the ability to feel as others do, and so will do some destructive things.

It's entirely possible to use the methods from the PUA community with empathy (and perhaps, compassion) ... but you know, in order to do that, you first have to get in touch with your own emotions. Most men tend to be wimpy about going deep within themselves or surrendering to truth and wisdom.

[DanBC]

> how much safer would this guy be if they'd done the standard 'Hey, you're cool, let's add eachother on Facebook' or 'Can you text me your address'? A minimal digital 'paper trail' would probably give a guy like this a lot of pause, and if he'd been hesitant/weird about those interactions, it'd probably be even more of a clue for even a young guy.

I guess being a serial killer is an iterative process. You start clumsy, and develop the technique. You probably lack the inhibitions that stop you from psychological experiments on people.

I'm sure a plausible liar could persuade me that there was a reason not to give me facebook ("oh, hey, my mom is on there, and she'd ask me questions about all the guys I keep adding" would probably work on me) or other interactions.

[saturdaysaint]

"I'm sure a plausible liar could persuade me that there was a reason not to give me facebook ("oh, hey, my mom is on there, and she'd ask me questions about all the guys I keep adding" would probably work on me) or other interactions."

Not to be too pedantic about a hypothetical, but that would give away his ulterior motive a whole lot sooner. I only quibble because there are a thousand ways that modest technology use could snag someone or raise red flags. What if someone had called him on his phone while he was hanging out with this guy? "Oh I'm at the corner of x and x hanging out with a new friend". What if he took a picture of that guy? What if the occasional GTA session and hooking up with dudes on hook-up sites sublimated a lot of the killer's darker urges? Or what if, in a more connected world a lot more accepting of gay people, he just moved to Maine and bought a house with a boyfriend?

I'm sure we can go back and forth about a lot of things like this, but the bottom line is that there has been a massive reduction in violent crime in the last decade or so; I think technology has been a major factor.