[bborud]

I find it disheartening that every technology that takes us in the right direction, but which is not yet cost effective, is constantly pissed on by people who expect immediate solutions and who fail to see that these things are not going to develop themselves.

Sure, it is a tax dodge for rich middle class people, but if people could just keep their envy in check for the decade or two it is going to take to bring costs down and sustainability up, this is going to benefit a lot of people.

How else are we going to incentivise companies to develop better solar panels? Seriously, I really want to know.

We are seeing the same thing with the Tesla Model S in Norway right now. On one hand people dismiss electric cars because they are not yet as sustainable as we would like them to be. On the other hand they get their panties in a bunch because you can now buy a really good car (with amazing performance) at the same price as a regular car. In Norway the Model S costs ~550k NOK. A petrol-powered car with the same performance figures costs ~1,500k NOK -- nearly 1,000k NOK being taxes. (Interestingly, the Model S is the first electric car that many people would consider buying as their only car. So far, electric cars have been toys for people who can afford a second or third car, and who want to park for free and use the public transport lanes).

It is going to take a lot of development to make solar panels sustainable. The more of a market we can create for them, the quicker development will take place and the quicker they will become available to broader segments of consumers. And we'll just have to tolerate that to push the industry forward, we will have to dangle some incentives in front of those who are able to take part.

[kamjam]

There was a great TED Talk by Elon Musk. He says every new product needs to go through at least 3 iterations before becoming mass market, and Tesla is currently at iteration 2.

http://www.ted.com/talks/elon_musk_the_mind_behind_tesla_spa...

[walshemj]

Yes but giving vast tax breaks to upper middle class people isn't the way to do it and i say that as some one who could easily have done that (we have a v nice roof facing in just the right direction)

Did you not see the original 8% tax free return for 20 years I mentioned - the uk 10 year yield is currently 2.7%

[bborud]

Then how do you suggest we get people to install solar panels?

[walshemj]

I wouldn't I would put Rnd cash into fuel cell's both for local use and for vehicles.

Spare wind/wave energy can then be stored as hydrogen and used as fuel for both aplications.

[bborud]

OK, I'll humor you: So how would you go about getting people to install hydrogen fuel cells if subsidies and tax breaks are off the table?

The main issue here is that solar panels are not yet cost effective (or energy neutral) -- not whether or not we believe in the technology. To make progress you need to get the ball rolling by creating a market so that you can fund development and gather practical experience. So the question remains: what mechanism is the appropriate mechanism for stimulating the necessary development?

[toomuchtodo]

The money has to come from somewhere, and its either tax breaks or direct subsidies (ie. cash payments).

[walshemj]

No government has an infinite amount of cash and there are better things (NHS, Infrastructure, Sovereign Wealth funds) to spend it on rather than a vast tax break for high net worth individuals.

[toomuchtodo]

Distributed renewable generation is infrastructure. Also, the health costs from coal fired generation are enormous.