[beaumartinez]

It's a good idea, but penalizing jobs for mentioning pizza, beer or ping-pong is ridiculous. In fact calling those "hollow rewards" at all is ridiculous. They suggest a friendly, social atmosphere, arguably one of the more important features of a job.

They also call swearing "unprofessional", as if that's a bad thing. Again, it suggests a laid back atmosphere, where no-one cares if you swear when you're dealing with a particularly nasty bug.

A degree of political correctness can be beneficial, but overzealousness like this is counterproductive.

[ronaldx]

Mentioning pizza, beer, ping-pong, or swearing in a job ad are all will-not-apply conditions for me.

Pizza, beer and ping-pong in the job description suggests it's a social requirement to be involved in those things: it's almost literally being described as part of the job.

It indicates that there is likely a poor attitude towards work-life balance and employee health and is probably a marker for hidden prejudices disguised as "culture fit". Frankly, I value those rewards highly negatively.

As a philosophical exercise: consider replacing pizza with sushi, beer with wine, and ping-pong with Zumba. Still a sensible ad for a tech job? Why/why not?

Swearing at a bug and swearing at a potential employee are contextually different. I have no problem working in an environment where swearing at a bug is acceptable; swearing at an employee or colleague should be no more acceptable than swearing at a valued client (for clarity: not acceptable under normal circumstances).

The appropriateness of swearing is highly contextual - putting it in a job ad likely shows that you don't know where sensible boundaries are.

[crazygringo]

> As a philosophical exercise: consider replacing pizza with sushi, beer with wine, and ping-pong with Zumba. Still a sensible ad for a tech job? Why/why not?

Thank you. That's one of the best examples of a point I've seen in a while... excellently put!

It gets precisely at how, by offering certain "perks" that easily seem innocuous or just fun, it's actually promoting a very specific workplace culture, that has nothing whatsoever to do with the actual professional job, which so easily works against diversity, and possibly turns away far more talented workers than it attracts.

[mathattack]

It may tell you that the job is anti-diversity, but at least it's honest. If there's a weekly whiskey (or tequila or chocolate brownie) hour at the company, wouldn't you want to know in advance?

[lobotryas]

Did you just imply that "chocolate brownie hour" is "anti-diversity"? Could you expand on your general point a bit more? My take away seems to be: "never offer your employees any perks or optional activities because somene will feel offended/left out/forced to participate against their will".

[mathattack]

Not about diversity, just an example of culture. I wanted to pick a counter-example that didn't include pizza or alcohol, and "chocolate brownie" came to mind first because I had one in front of me. (Unfortunately not company sponsored. It's long gone now!)

The general idea is it's good to know the perks that are offered. Somebody will always feel left out. (People whose diets preclude brownies, for example.) It's good to know what the culture is going in, so that we can self select and only choose to work for places in alignment with our beliefs.

Perhaps more useful signals of culture would be hours worked, amount of autonomy versus teamwork, and types of customer interaction.

[lobotryas]

Fair reply. The discussion so far seems to have hit the usual HN extreme where any trace of impropriety (and thus, arguably, humanity) must be purged from job postings in favor of dry job requirements, lest someone feel ostracized.

For the record, I'd love to work in a company where beer, ping pong and pizza are perks as long as these were done well, instead of just being an obligation. Guess this makes me a "brogrammer" :)

[lobotryas]

>Mentioning pizza, beer, ping-pong, or swearing in a job ad are all will-not-apply conditions for me.

Every job or job posting will never be everything to everyone. If I considered those words a turn-off, then I'd be happy for job postings that lend themselves so readily to such a quick filter.

>As a philosophical exercise: consider replacing pizza with sushi, beer with wine, and ping-pong with Zumba. Still a sensible ad for a tech job?

Sure, if you're Google or just have a lot of money. "Pizza, beer, ping-pong" are mentioned because they're cheap LCDs rather than a hallowed tech lifestyle.

[ronaldx]

> If I considered those words a turn-off, then I'd be happy for job postings that lend themselves so readily to such a quick filter.

This makes filtering jobs quite easy, true. But it shouldn't - this situation makes me unhappy about the state of the industry.

> "Pizza, beer, ping-pong" are mentioned because they're cheap LCDs

Yes, I identify that these are cheap items being passed-off as employee benefits: my evaluation of the company is affected by that as well. "Common" Denominators, not so much.

[lobotryas]

In your opinion, what should the "state of the industry" be like?

[sanderjd]

Free sushi, wine, and Zumba sounds awesome! But it's a really good demonstration of how it makes it sound like a very different company employing very different people.

[newppc]

If the tech job offered sushi, wine, and Zumba, I'm all in - that probably means I'm one of a few programmers at some type of company with lots of women, which makes for a refreshing and interesting work environment.

[theorique]

If a job offers yoga, that's even better.

Yoga implies (usually) a 75 / 25 male to female ratio. And yoga pants. Yes, yoga pants.

[ebiester]

"consider replacing pizza with sushi, beer with wine, and ping-pong with Zumba."

Where do I sign up? I'll even take 2 buck chuck. ;)

That could be an amazing place to work. I'm kind of sad that's not a real job ad now.

[notacoward]

Others have addressed the issue of "pizza/beer/ping-pong" as code for "we want to keep you in the office all day" so I'll just add one little anecdote. Long before the internet bubble, it was Thinking Machines that set the standard for these kinds of benefits. In that timeframe (1995 or so) I went to interview at Kendall Square Research. They made a really big deal about having catered breakfast, lunch and dinner. Even my naive and hungry younger self was tempted to ask if that meant they had cots in the back too, for the expected all-nighters. They said no, but I've worked with many people from KSR since then and they confirm that yes they did. I doubt much has changed. Companies provide these benefits for a reason. It's not because they like you and want to know you better. ;)

Now, the real point: swearing. I think it's great when companies allow casual clothes and swearing and obnoxious music. It's a real problem when they expect those things. When someone puts that in a job posting, which seems more likely? What if the best distributed-systems programmer in the world happens to be a bit old-fashioned about such things? Why should they be excluded because of that, any more than if the company were traditional and they were all bro-ish? Hipsterism has become its own kind of PC.

[kazagistar]

The company has to pick one or the other. Swearing keeps out some, not swearing keeps out others. Why should either be more correct then the other? I see no problem with the company stating this unless you happen to be offended by developers cursing at their code on occasion.

[notacoward]

I think even the most traditional programmer knows that swearing at code is A Thing That Happens. The question is not whether swearing at code is accepted at a company. The question is what kind of candidates they attract by putting it in their ads, and that seems to be putting things too far at one extreme.

[theorique]

Swearing at your code is one thing. Swearing audibly in the office.

Swearing in a job ad is - to my mind - somewhat unprofessional. It's not like this is an off-the-record conversation or casual chat - this is an official business document that has potential legal implications.

[tommorris]

A particularly cynical person might look at these things as a way to try and keep you in the office for as long as possible, something to numb the pain of long hours and broken management.

"Sure, we had to work until midnight, but there was pizza" rings a bit hollow when you are older, have kids or other forms of life outside work.

[rfrey]

Absolutely true -- But I think the parent's point is that it can also mean pizza and beer at 3:00 on Fridays, and ping-pong in the break room whenever you need a break.

Lots of companies do try to create fun, relaxed atmospheres... I wonder how they can let people know (and why shouldn't they?) without getting lumped in with the type of company you mention?

[nknighthb]

> it can also mean pizza and beer at 3:00 on Fridays

Which means my last chance to accomplish critical tasks before the weekend is hosed, because there's a bunch of noisy, unproductive, drunk idiots around who won't answer questions and keep trying to push their idiot-sauce onto me.

> ping-pong in the break room whenever you need a break

So whoever sits near the break room can't get anything done because there's always noisy, unproductive, screaming idiots hitting a ball around.

> getting lumped in with the type of company you mention

As if the type you mentioned is superior?

[raverbashing]

So whoever drinks beer, eats pizza or plays ping pong is a "noisy idiot"?

Yes, break rooms should have proper acoustical isolation, or be adequately placed apart.

Beyond that, noise cancelling headphones does wonders!

[nknighthb]

> So whoever drinks beer, eats pizza or plays ping pong is a "noisy idiot"?

If you want to interpret it that way, fine. I really don't care. You interfere with my work and try to shove an addictive, brain-freezing drug on me (no matter how many times I tell you my family history says stay the fuck away). Yes, you're noisy idiots. If you like, I can come up with different, even more insulting descriptions that I think fit even better.

> Yes, break rooms should have proper acoustical isolation, or be adequately placed apart.

They don't. Welcome to the real world.

> Beyond that, noise cancelling headphones does wonders!

I shouldn't have to isolate myself from an environment intended for doing work in order to do work.

It's an office. If it's not for getting work done, why am I in it? Why can't I just work from home? Why is the business spending money on it in the first place? Get rid of it and use the savings to pay me more.

[_qhtn]

Is it exhausting being better than everyone else?

[dspeyer]

I've often had "break for pizza and similar from 4-5 on fridays and then go back to work" as a pattern (I tend to get in at 11, so I'm not leaving at 5 anyway). Some chaotic interaction with co-workers tends to be a good thing.

[viraptor]

> So whoever sits near the break room can't get anything done

Why do you want to do anything in the break room, apart from... you know, having a break / fun while away from the keyboard?

[nknighthb]

I don't. There is no implication of being "in the break room". You've badly misread something.

[viraptor]

Ok, near the break room, not in the break room. So why not ask to be moved somewhere else? I do understand that it can be annoying, sure. But I think you're making the problem bigger than it actually is. Or maybe really just not happy with the whole company environment in that case?

[tommorris]

The company I currently contract for have a fun and relaxed environment. There is beer in the fridge on Fridays and an at-cost bar shared with other occupants in the building.

None of these things were discussed during the hiring process. They are a nice little bonus.

[Ntrails]

Man I'd love to be able to play half an hour of table tennis to chill when stuck on something. Instead I do equally unproductive things like commenting on Hacker News - which isn't even good for my health...

[zalew]

> penalizing jobs for mentioning pizza, beer or ping-pong is ridiculous. In fact calling those "hollow rewards" at all is ridiculous.

More than often they are not only hollow rewards but hidden age/background preferences, it basically means "we want somebody straight out of college" or "people who got nothing better to do than stay long hours at the office". At a certain age or situation, you're usually no longer excited by the opportunity of playing ping-pong and drinking beer at work, you want to do your job, get paid, and go home.

[monksy]

Even as a twenty something... I have to agree with your statement. At the end of the day its still a business.

[king_jester]

> It's a good idea, but penalizing jobs for mentioning pizza, beer or ping-pong is ridiculous. In fact calling those "hollow rewards" at all is ridiculous. They suggest a friendly, social atmosphere, arguably one of the more important features of a job.

Pizza and ping pong aside, mentions of beer and alcohol are a big no no and making those things present at work is a horrible idea. It alienates those who don't drink and those who have previously had drinking problems and, if my experience is accurate, those types of places heavily rely on drinking events for socializing, which further alienates.

[aestra]

I think there might be a line where having some limited alcohol available for those who want it at social events but not emphasizing it, especially not in a job posting. This job posting does tend to alienate non-drinkers, which just keeps them from even applying.

I can think of a few jobs that have a culture that emphasizes alcohol consumption. The United States Navy comes to mind. Here's some research to back that statement up: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/06/090609130802.ht...

[7Figures2Commas]

> ...but penalizing jobs for mentioning pizza, beer or ping-pong is ridiculous.

A job posting is sort of like an elevator pitch except that the target is prospective employees and not investors.

With time and space limited, what a company chooses to include in a job posting reveals a lot. Unless a company really believes that pizza, beer and ping-pong are important components of its value proposition, I'm not sure how mention of these things can be expected to stand out as a compelling differentiator in the eyes of most candidates.

> ...a friendly, social atmosphere, arguably one of the more important features of a job.

An employer can create a friendly, social atmosphere without seeking to provide a social experience. Too many startups don't recognize that there's a difference.

[danielweber]

I like them for being a resistance against the lots-of-overtime, don't-hire-people-who-shoot-hoops companies.

I don't like them because they can potentially be yet another bad force trying to dictate what software culture "should" be. I personally would hate to work in a VBScript shop, but who are they to say it's "uncool"?

[6d0debc071]

> They also call swearing "unprofessional", as if that's a bad thing. Again, it suggests a laid back atmosphere, where no-one cares if you swear when you're dealing with a particularly nasty bug.

I don't particular want to be sworn at. That'd be my main concern if I saw someone swearing in a job advert.

[nailer]

As someone who's worked at (and quickly left) places where quality of code was measured by the amount of tests (while copy pasta, immediately evident memory leaks, and ASCII-art // HACK boxes lived throughout the entire app), I'd react positively to a job ad that mentioned http://programming-motherfucker.com/.

[antsar]

While I get (and largely agree with) the sentiments on that site, god that was painful to read. Time to create readability-motherfucker.com, I guess?

[jasonlotito]

It's open source. You can customize the scores to fit your desires.

[theorique]

They also call swearing "unprofessional", as if that's a bad thing. Again, it suggests a laid back atmosphere, where no-one cares if you swear when you're dealing with a particularly nasty bug.

Swearing at work, I don't find particularly unprofessional. I've worked (and currently work) in environments which rival pirate ships for off-color jokes and profanity.

However, these same workplaces never put swearing in a job ad. To me, that would be kind of a red flag. In the spoken case, it's an ephemeral, off-the-record kind of thing. In the written case, in an official HR document no less, it's quite different. Frankly, I'm not sure how profanity would make it into an official job posting.

Of course, it's a very different matter if you're emailing your college buddy to ask him to come work for your awesome company, but then this would not be a job ad for public consumption, would it?

[haldujai]

You make valid points, perhaps there should be a boolean for whether professionalism is desired or not.

Personally I prefer professionalism at the very least in the job posting, I don't particularly care if it's laid back and neither does anyone at a firm in the financial industry or most Fortune 500s.

[ig1]

There's definitely a lot of developers who won't work at places with business-style dress code (suits, no jeans, etc.) in the financial industry.

[haldujai]

I agree, what I mean to suggest is that the developer of this software was not necessarily wrong to mark those as hollow because there is a (probably) larger amount of developers who don't mind business-style, hence the suggestion for an option to enable/disable.

[reginaldjcooper]

I'd prefer the suit, but note that referring to the toggle as "professionalism" is going to go right up the nose of the ping-pong players.

[Cthulhu_]

I agree. As mentioned above, pizza, ping-pong and beer are all cheap and (besides the ping-pong) unhealthy 'benefits'. I would be more attracted to the job if it had steady work hours, a gym, and quality beer.

A guy I knew got himself a new job once, he was excited about it because they had helicopters the programmers could play with. I was like "So uh, what do you do?"

If a job advert tries to distract from the actual job (you know, the thing you're supposed to do for 8 hours a day to get paid) with 'fun' benefits, it suggests that the job itself isn't all that awesome.

I like the rule. If only because I like to pretend I'm distinguished enough to not approve of beer and pizza, :p.

[hbbio]

Agreed. But is there a rule to accept "Belgian beer" instead of just beer!

[seanhandley]

You can decide which filters you want - or write your own :-)

[d0m]

Dunno, I think it's part of the culture fit. A company saying they're playing starcraft on lunch time will clearly have my interest.