[polymatter]

No religion doesn't have something that Western society doesn't have moral difficulty with. Christianity has a load of crap about stoning people, homophobia and subjugation of women for a start. Also includes God sanctioned rape and murder of non-Christians. Leviticus, Exodus and Deuteronomy is full of that crap.

[cmdkeen]

Except Christianity broadly doesn't believe in the Bible being the literal word of God and thus all of those rules applying now - and no country accepts it as their view of Christianity. Biblical infallibility is a modern, revivalist concept. Even during the good old days of the Mediaeval Church no-one stoned adulterers.

No Christian country has laws stoning people on the basis of "it's in the Bible". However it is the law in many Muslim countries.

That's the problem. Christianity is a religion that has had philosophy and interpretation bedded in from the off. US revivalists may ignore that rich history but it is a minority. Islam lost that argument many centuries ago, before which it led the world in scientific discovery and culture, now only a few, oppressed, sects think that way.

[aldous]

A valuable point worth noting in relation to this is the fact that Jesus, in the new testament, specifically dismisses such practices as stoning:

John 8:7. “He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.”

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/let_him_who_is_without_sin_cas...

It is one of the central tenets of Christian faith that one should not judge others. Quotes attributed to Jesus explicitly state this many times in the new testament.

[waps]

Funny that you mention that. You see islam has that exact story in it's holy books, but with a slightly different outcome :

Bukhari :: Book 6 :: Volume 60 :: Hadith 79 "The Jews brought to the Prophet a man and a woman from among them who had committed illegal sexual intercourse. The Prophet said to them, "How do you usually punish the one amongst you who has committed illegal sexual intercourse?" They replied, "We blacken their faces with coal and beat them," He said, "Don't you find the order of Ar-Rajm (i.e. stoning to death) in the Torah?" They replied, "We do not find anything in it." 'Abdullah bin Salam (after hearing this conversation) said to them. "You have told a lie! Bring here the Torah and recite it if you are truthful." (So the Jews brought the Torah). And the religious teacher who was teaching it to them, put his hand over the Verse of Ar-Rajm and started reading what was written above and below the place hidden with his hand, but he did not read the Verse of Ar-Rajm. 'Abdullah bin Salam removed his (i.e. the teacher's) hand from the Verse of Ar-Rajm and said, "What is this?" So when the Jews saw that Verse, they said, "This is the Verse of Ar-Rajm." So the Prophet ordered the two adulterers to be stoned to death, and they were stoned to death near the place where biers used to be placed near the Mosque. I saw her companion (i.e. the adulterer) bowing over her so as to protect her from the stones."

Let me repeat that last sentence: 'I saw her companion (i.e. the adulterer) bowing over her so as to protect her from the stones.'

If any muslim can answer this question : who was the most moral person in this story. The prophet or the adulterer ? Because the answer is VERY clear to me.

[rehack]

>If any muslim can answer this question : who was the most moral person in this story. The prophet or the adulterer ?

I doubt you will find any Muslims here who profess 100% faith to the tenets of Islam. Wrong place to ask, I think. More likely you will find cultural Muslims over here. And they themselves struggle with doubts and what-good-to-pick from religion, like their other religion counter parts.

Also its not good to judge some 1400 year old incident with modern day values.

[flumbaps]

Yeah, but during medieval and early modern times the church tortured and killed heretics and supposed witches. There isn't even anything in the Bible about doing that. Oppressive theocratic regimes aren't caused by the religious texts they interpret. The Turkish people have a very tolerant culture, despite being an Islamic nation.

The fact is, when a set of beliefs is used as a foundation for nation building, it usually gets twisted over time to create an oppressive regime. Think about the rhetoric of Communism, how explicit that is about equality and fairness, and how well that turned out. It is not amazing that Islamic nations are shitty places to live. What is amazing is that secular, democratic, capitalist nations are quite nice places to live.