[mpyne]

Manning never faced the death penalty. Not for a single day.

This goes back to what I was saying about advocates being near to dishonesty, by the way. You probably read at some point Manning was facing the death penalty, and despite having years and years to correct your initial misperception, you continue to not only remember that incorrectly, but to parrot it as truth.

> Once information is out in the clear, it makes absolutely zero sense to try and claim some sort of retroactive "special inherent legal protection."

When Barrett pasted that link, was that information already publically available? I don't mean "a URL one could theoretically have wardialed"... did all the others in that IRC chat room already have that data, or did they not?

If that data were already out in public and he was simply referencing it I'd probably agree with your interpretation in this case. But if that data were 'news' to the rest of the chat room then it seems that 'hacking and pilfering' would apply, except that no hacking was needed in this case.

But either way involvement in criminal enterprises has always been itself a crime, to avoid diversion of responsibility in the way you would allow.

E.g. a bank robbery, the guy driving the getaway car gets in trouble too even though driving a car isn't illegal, otherwise you could split up your criminal ring in a kind of 'process separation' scheme and have only a few take the risk of the actual crime while the rest aid as much as they can with normally-legal activity.

[trevelyan]

> You probably read at some point Manning was facing the death penalty, and despite having years and years to correct your initial misperception....

Manning was charged with "aiding the enemy". This is a capital crime, and while prosecutors stated they would not "recommend" the death penalty, they do not determine sentencing and the military judge could have ignored their recommendation were Manning found guilty.

It entirely true that Manning faced the death penalty.

[mpyne]

> This is a capital crime, and while prosecutors stated they would not "recommend" the death penalty, they do not determine sentencing and the military judge could have ignored their recommendation were Manning found guilty

Go read the Manual for Court-Martial yourself. Specifically Rule 1004. Death penalty determinations must be made at the beginning of the trial (specifically, on both referral of charges and on arraignment). The judge doesn't get to enter a death penalty plea on behalf of a wary prosecution.

And, even in cases where the death penalty is on the table, the jury (not the judge) must unanimously agree with the sentence. There's a reason the military hasn't managed to execute anyone since the middle of the Cold War when the civilian system has been busy sending people to the executioner's chair.

What I can't figure out is how you're so convinced you're right based only on what seems to be an "educated layman's knowledge" (at best) of military law. I'd understand being confused by someone else, but I'm telling you the source material you need to go read and you're arguing instead of reading...

[trevelyan]

You're right. It was not referred as a capital case although it could have been. And I was not aware the judge did not have the leeway to override the prosecution as a result.

[aspensmonster]

>Manning never faced the death penalty. Not for a single day.

Yes. He did. He was charged with the capital offense of aiding the enemy. And yes. I know that the prosecution declined to seek the death penalty. And that the trial did not begin with the required paperwork to do so.

>This goes back to what I was saying about advocates being near to dishonesty, by the way. You probably read at some point Manning was facing the death penalty, and despite having years and years to correct your initial misperception, you continue to not only remember that incorrectly, but to parrot it as truth.

The prosecution declined to seek the death penalty. Instead, they ultimately asked for 60 years. Now, the distinction between being lethally injected and left to rot for 60 years is minimal in my mind (and the injection seems almost preferable), but there's nothing dishonest or near dishonest about the fact that Manning faced the death penalty. It was the (surely merciful) prosecution that had the choice and declined to fill out the necessary paper work. Every day prior to their decision to merely seek an effectively life-long prison sentence, rather than an immediate execution, was a day Manning spent uncertain even of whether he would be executed or not, much less whether he'd spend the remainder of his life in a six by eight foot cage.

I am not remembering anything incorrectly. I'm merely refusing to let misconceptions spawned from paralegal pedantry trump justice.

>When Barrett pasted that link, was that information already publically available?

Yes. The entire debacle was already blowing up between Christmas Eve and Christmas Day on 2011. Stratfor itself was aware of the problem on Christmas Eve and alerting its subscriber base to the breach and what they were doing about it. Dozens of people were reporting about this "on or about December 25 2011" as the indictment describes, when it lists "http://wikisend.com/download/597646/stratfor_full_b.txt.gz" as the link that got Brown in trouble when he copy-pasted it from #AnonOps to #projectpm and in so doing, in the eyes of the indictment, became guilty of aiding and abetting in charges relating to "Traffic in Stolen Authentication Features," "Access Device Fraud," and "Aggravated Indentity Theft." (indictment: http://freebarrettbrown.org/files/bb_indictment2.pdf). Take a look at the various reports from December 24 2011 to December 25 2011 to the query "stratfor hack" on Google:

(google query: http://www.google.com/search?q=stratfor+hack&tbs=cdr%3A1%2Cc...)

>did all the others in that IRC chat room already have that data, or did they not?

>But if that data were 'news' to the rest of the chat room then it seems that 'hacking and pilfering' would apply, except that no hacking was needed in this case.

How so? The standard is not whether it's "news" to whoever is listening, be they readers of a newspaper or users in an IRC channel. That's like saying that I'm aiding and abetting Snowden's release of the NSA files because, before Snowden, Greenwald, Poitras et alia released the materials, I was unaware of their existence.

>But either way involvement in criminal enterprises has always been itself a crime, to avoid diversion of responsibility in the way you would allow.

There is no "diversion of responsibility" taking place here. Those responsible for the initial hack into stratfor have already been tried and convicted. Hammond was also involved in utilizing the credit card data to lodge donations to various entities, along with other "co-conspirators" that the FBI presumably has yet to identify. And are we also forgetting that the FBI was complicit in this whole charade with Stratfor? Sabu was already their man at this point, and when Hammond approached Sabu about vulnerabilities in Stratfor's infrastructure, the FBI set up their own servers with which to store the information that was to be exfiltrated! Hell, according to the FBI's own press release, Hammond and Co. were responsible for the initial leak of information:

"HAMMOND and his co-conspirators also publicly disclosed some of the confidential information they had stolen."

(press release: http://www.fbi.gov/newyork/press-releases/2012/six-hackers-i...)

Is Brown to be considered a co-conspirator for talking about something that dozens if not hundreds or even thousands of others were also talking about at the same time? The indictment's line of reasoning swallows itself whole: who's going to indict those responsible for listing the link in the indictment? Or those who link to the indictment? Or host it? Is anyone going to go after the FBI for knowingly and willingly permitting the breach and release of materials belonging to a protected corporation of the United States that thereby caused undue economic distress to said corporation?

[mpyne]

The prosecution has to make it a capital case or not when they file formal charges. Until Manning was charged there was no way for a death penalty to be on the table, but the prosecution couldn't "pre-charge him" with a capital case and drop the death penalty the week after, it had to be at the same time. So no, not for a single day.

However if there was public awareness of the link itself (and its contents) at the time Barrett pasted the link then I would agree that it makes no sense to charge him with pointing out information that's already out there, as by then he's not the source or someone with involvement, but an observer.