[lutusp]

> ... reads as though you just don't want it to be your problem.

Actually, as a matter of fact, it isn't my problem. Women have rights, freedom, and 60% of the money in society. All they need to do is stop whining, stop listening to negative voices from inside and outside their own community, and choose another approach.

> Can men just stop being dicks to women?

Ah, yes, the default feminist agenda -- it's all the fault of men. That's why I suggest setting up a cooperative economic and technological system, or network if you will, and solve the man problem that way.

Imagine that you're an African-American slave in the U.S. about the time of the Civil War. The problem is obviously slave owners, who will rationalize their behavior as they continue to oppress you, while explaining that it's for your own good.

What are your options? You can complain about the master some more, hope he will eventually change his behavior, or you can enter the underground railroad and change your environment and your prospects.

What's your choice? Complain about your mistreatment at the hands of a congenital racist, risk worse treatment as the biggest change in U.S. history unfolds around you, or move on?

> That seems way simpler than starting schools and companies for teaching women how to overcome all the men who are being dicks to them.

Yes -- the problem is men, so women don't have to do anything except complain and pose as victims.

> It's so obvious, I'm astonished you haven't thought of it.

The problem here isn't what I haven't thought of, it's what you haven't thought of.

During my around-the-world solo sail (http://arachnoid.com/sailbook) I had many adventures. One of the most memorable with respect to the present topic was in a small Egyptian village, where as evening came on, people would gather around the community TV set and watch American TV, which is very popular there.

One of the shows included scenes in which a woman would speak up for her rights -- she might shout at a man who was mistreating her, or simply leave. Normal and justified behavior in the West, but not part of the lives of Egyptian women. I remember how those scenes were received by the village women, and how they did what they could to keep from cheering when they saw a woman speak up for herself.

But you know what? In that society, those women are far from being able to exercise what we might regard as basic human rights. But women in this society don't have that excuse -- women possess, and can exercise, political and economic power, and they can vote with their feet. Or they can try to blame all their problems on men.

The problem is not that women don't have power and rights. The problem is that women won't exercise them. It's much easier to say, "if only men would be nicer," and carry on posing as victims.

Sorry -- no sale.

[abadidea]

Thank Goddess you weren't around during the American Civil War so you could make a huge show of NOT participating as a white member of the Underground Railroad because the plight of black slaves just wasn't your fucking problem.

Allow me to use the power you think I have to say: fuck you, thanks for nothing, jerk face. If it's "not your problem" then you are actively increasing my problems.

All my educators were men. Everyone in my chain of command from manager to CEO are men. About 90% of my industry peers are men. If they were all anti-woman then WHAT GODDAM POWER WOULD I HAVE? But they're not. Some of them even go so far as to acknowledge the general state of inequality might be within THEIR power to influence. And so here I am: a woman with a computer science degree, working information security, because not only did some men choose not to use their power to block me from getting a foothold, THEY DECIDED TO BE ACTIVELY FEMINIST and help me pull through when the misogynists were telling me to kill myself because I was a worthless slut and actively trying to prevent my career from ever starting with harassment, degradation, and slander.

Maybe I'm not your problem. But if you are just gonna kick back and relax and let misogyny sort itself out then you. are. mine.

[lutusp]

> fuck you, thanks for nothing, jerk face.

Very constructive. The above is why this is your problem, not mine. Only one of us lives in civilization.

> If it's "not your problem" then you are actively increasing my problems.

And you are a career victim. Every woman alive, along with her legitimate burdens, has to bear the pointless weight of your infantile sexism and ignorance.

> Maybe I'm not your problem. But if you are just gonna kick back and relax ...

For the record, I've contributed over a million dollars to feminist causes over the years -- NARAL, Planned Parenthood, others. I singlehandedly started and supported a women's health clinic in a rural location that desperately needed it. As a result, I received regular death threats from the men in that town, but every time I heard from women (the beneficiaries) about that project, I got to hear how I wasn't doing enough, how they needed more from their white male oppressors. Finally, after years of the same, I gave up. I realized I was dealing with perpetual voluntary infants.

And I wonder if you even know what you sound like. Women asked for the vote and got the vote. Women asked for civil rights and got civil rights. Women's status has improved to the degree that they control the majority of public and private financial resources. But instead of accepting personal responsibility like grown-ups, they continue to act like petulant children -- "Fix it, daddy!"

In 2013, the real sexists are women. Men can be retrained away from stone-age attitudes, for the best possible reason -- it's in their interest. But some women have to be dragged, kicking and screaming, into a position of adult personal responsibility. Unfortunately, in public fora like this one, those particular women, even though the minority, tend to be heard out of all proportion to their actual numbers, and they end up drowning out the voices of those who would instead say, "I'm ready to deal with reality on its own terms."

The problem is not that women won't that no for an answer, those days are justly behind us. The problem is women won't take yes for an answer. No matter how many times women's demands are met in full, one quickly hears more demands, all calculated to shift women's legitimate burdens onto men.

Women have the majority of the money, they have full civil rights, they enjoy the fruits of a century of "yes, yes, whatever you say, yes!" It's time for women to stop whining about how badly they're being treated and accept personal responsibility.

[eevee]

It's mindboggling that you can simultaneously call women children and assert that men aren't causing any problems for women.

You're really focused on civil rights and the vote (like it should be impressive that those aren't restricted to white male landowners), but by far the biggest grievances I hear from women are cultural. Being assumed to be anything but engineers because girls are bad at math. Being hit on in contexts that are wildly inappropriate or where turning someone down seems like a bad idea. Being blamed for the actions of their male significant others because everyone "knows" women control men. (I don't much appreciate that one, either.) Having committees of men vote down the women's health budget in one of the largest states. Being called children for still having to deal with a barrage of "remember your place" subtext and not really appreciating it. You know, little things.

Of course those women told you they needed more. You were getting death threats for helping them. That pretty clearly screams that something is still deeply wrong.

There are plenty of women working to help women—some of them the best way they know how, by talking about it—but when the main problem is with the culture, the quick solution is to stop perpetuating it.

[marbletiles]

Sorry, you're not welcome as a customer.

If you are a member of the oppressing class (in whichever context: from being friends with a school bully to knowing a slave trader) and an oppressed person tells you they are suffering from the actions of that class, it becomes your duty to help stop it.

This hand-washing help-yourself attitude is never acceptable. "What did you do to help free the slaves, daddy?"

"Oh, nothing, the slaves should have done it themselves".

[eevee]

> Actually, as a matter of fact, it isn't my problem.

> The problem is obviously slave owners, who will rationalize their behavior as they continue to oppress you

I'm glad we're on the same page here.

[lutusp]

>> Actually, as a matter of fact, it isn't my problem.

>> The problem is obviously slave owners, who will rationalize their behavior as they continue to oppress you

> I'm glad we're on the same page here.

One of the above quotes refers to modern times, the other refers to a time when some people owned other people. Don't even think about trying to equate the two.

Women have the freedoms they fought for. They won the good fight for the best of reasons -- their cause was just. Now they have to accept the fact that any remaining problems are of their own making.

[eevee]

Hey, it's your analogy. I merely concede that it's an excellent one.

To continue it, I observe that black America also has the freedoms they fought for; is racism over as well?

[mxBug]

The underground railroad was composed of compassionate white people forming a network of hospitality and discretion. Both suffrage movements would have been for naught without the vote and voice of white males. You might think that things are different, but institutional oppression is plain and simply impossible for the oppressed group to overcome without either (1) revolution, or (2) allies among the privileged.

And really, it's the little things that count; it's not much more effort to be part of the solution that it is to disparage those that perceive the problem.