[tinco]

Saying racist things makes you racist, wether you are mentally ill or not.

It does mean we should judge him less for it. But it also means it might be a good decision to ban him so that he does not tarnish the community with too many flame threads.

[tippytop]

Then does not saying racist things automatically make you not-racist? Or is there other criteria we need to apply before hanging the label? For example, do they believe the words coming out of their own mouth? What about someone with Tourette's? I'm not trying to fall in a philosophical hole, but I believe that racism is a conscious choice at some level and mental illness is not.

[lutusp]

> Then does not saying racist things automatically make you not-racist?

No, that doesn't work. A person not saying racist things might be a racist on his day off. The absence of racist speech cannot be used to declare a person not racist, because:

1. The person might harbor racist but unspoken thoughts.

2. We're all racists.

Number (2) pretty much settles the issue. I emphasize that the fact that we're all racists doesn't mean we're all bigots, or that we're not ashamed of our racism and sincerely wish to be free of racism.

> I believe that racism is a conscious choice at some level and mental illness is not.

I've met people raised in the south before modern times, and for many of them, racism was not a conscious choice. I've often disagreed with federal intervention in local politics, but as to civil rights, I have to say that was one case where federal intervention was absolutely necessary and just:

http://media.northjersey.com/images/0825t_shuttle2_50p.jpg

Also, mental illness can sometimes be a conscious choice as well. We can talk ourselves into a very unhealthy mental state -- or out of one. I'm talking only about the many kinds of mental illness that aren't biological in origin -- the kinds of mental illness that were voted into existence, and that make the DSM* noticeably bigger with each new revision.

* More about the DSM controversy: http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/elements/2013/05/the-s...

EDIT: I cannot believe someone downvoted this terrific reply. If I say so myself, it's first-rate, and it represents the height of irony that it was downvoted.

[sillysaurus2]

Also, mental illness can sometimes be a conscious choice as well. We can talk ourselves into a very unhealthy mental state -- or out of one.

Lest anyone believe this, let me emphasize that this project's author is suffering from schizophrenia, and schizophrenia is a physical disease. Your brain physically deteriorates.

[lutusp]

> Lest anyone believe this, let me emphasize that this project's author is suffering from schizophrenia

That doesn't contradict the idea that many mental illnesses have no physical or biological connection, indeed many are inventions of psychologists for their own personal benefit, and were created by votes, not research.

> and schizophrenia is a physical disease. Your brain physically deteriorates.

Very true, which is why schizophrenia isn't a mental illness, it's physical illness with mental symptoms. This isn't remotely controversial.

[wbhart]

According to wikipedia, it is associated with (doesn't imply causation) physical changes to the brain in 40-50% of cases. I'm not any kind of expert, just reading what I see there, but apart from small decreases in brain volume (not known whether this is preexistent or not), I don't see any mention of the brain "deteriorating". Indeed, it seems that around a quarter of sufferers recover completely, others may have long periods between relapse. It is also possible to suffer schizophrenia with a high intelligence quotient.

[lutusp]

Yes, noted, and perfectly reasonable. All this will eventually be resolved by neuroscience, as it takes over from psychiatry and psychology, a process that has already begun.

Neuroscience has a long way to go before it can offer what medicine offers for conventional diseases. But in the long term, it will make psychiatry and psychology look like astrology.

http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/elements/2013/05/the-s...

[derefr]

Does this mean spambots that get trained on a corpus containing racism are racists? Can you be a racist without knowing what race is? (This tangent brought to you by "things I'd rather HN talk about than this topic")

[mehmehshoe]

So I guess a large majority of comedians are racist. That may hurt ticket sales.

[crux]

Saying racist things makes those things racist. Being mentally ill makes you mentally ill and—in this case—prone to saying racist things.