[litegeek]

Well, the government side of things certainly sucks. But not as much as this article blows it out to be. And the title is pretty sensational at best.

So, a whole nation is bad because a dozen officers were lazy? I really love the prostitute-ish ways Techcrunch goes sometimes to get pageviews. Well, it's their style anyway (Apple vs Samsung articles, anyone?)

Let's forget Techcrunch now.

First, I would like to point out certain things about the Indian eco-system for Entrepreneurs.

If you plan to run a max-profit, high efficiency startup, India it is. Period.

I say 'high efficiency' because you can optimize a lot of things for maximum profit.

Programmers are dead cheap. By programmers, I mean real programmers. You can hire decent programmers for $150-$200 a month. And that's a pretty standard amount in the IT scenario in India. The last time I checked people were paying $1000-$2000 for an average marketer who cold calls and emails random people in Western countries.

Of course, the next thing you'd argue is about the 'quality' of the programmers. See, these are real people. I know you get to meet a lot of shitty Indians everywhere. They're all over freelancing market places, take your money and do a shitty job. Agreed. But these people are not the 100% of the IT work force in India. They're probably like 30-40% which is large, but they are very much employable. All you need to do is just teach them the right way to do things and they'll grasp. And they improve. Just like everybody else. They're also people like us, right?

Next, I say 'maximum profit' because there's a lot of things that will save you money in India.

Need some office space? Here you go, starting from $60 a month. And these are in posh locations we're talking about (Contrary to popular belief, India has a lot of posh locations which were not shown in Slumdog Millionaire. Again, sensationalism. Oh this bastardized media!)

So, you can get a decent lawyer for $100-200. These guys take care of all your company incorporation, etc. Need an auditor to file taxes? That's just $100 a year.

Let's do the math for an American incorporation?

$200-$600 for Incorporating an LLC $50-$100/yr for Registered agent. Attorney fees - $1000-$15000 (decent attorney)

Travel is dead cheap in India. For $10 you can travel between two states comfortably on a Volvo A/C bus. Traveling within the city? That's just $2 cents. Or $1 cent. Actually even less. Depends on your mode.

Safety. I know you've been reading a lot of rape and stuff in the news channel. So, everybody gets to read only the bad parts (Media, again). However, there are a lot of posh, decent areas where there are cops circling around almost 24/7 till night. These places cost slightly extra, but they are totally worth it.

Also, it is very important that you realize that India has rape incidents mean the whole nation is spread out with rapists. Rape cases are most often encountered in the northern region. It's safe to say that Southern India is pretty safe (much much safe) compared to North India, which is almost full of sex-starved assholes (vague generalizaion)

This is not to say that South India has no rape at all. Just like any other country, abuse exists, but it's pretty controlled in the South. The last time a child molester was caught, he was shot dead in an encounter. (encounters of nasty criminals are pretty common here). Just avoid going out in the nights to lonely places and you should be pretty safe. Avoid public transportation if you can, or opt for deluxe buses/trains. India is as safe as any other country if you take some general precautions.

Now back to our start up. If you started up in the United states/United Kingdom, you'd be blowing out money like water. But if you start up in India and seek funding from abroad, most likely people will avoid you because you are an India, and the complications involved. My advice - Setup a C-Corp/LLC/whatever in the States/UK or which ever country you need funding from and then run it from India through an Indian Pvt limited as its partner.

Why? Because in India, nobody wants to sue you for rounded corners. Nobody sues startups in India. And even if they do (0.01% probability), the lawyers are pretty cheap. And even if you lose in court, you will most likely have loopholes to escape. And even if you lose the case, you'd be paying very few for damages ($500-$10000) much much lower than compared to what you'd be paying in America/UK.

But, the Indian startup scenario is also full of assholes. The founders are generally good, but most lack decent vision. And the accelerators. Oh god, these guys want to be the face of the start up eco-system and will be all over the place. They will want huge percentages in your company to introduce you to some founder you can actually meet over coffee yourself. And seeking funding? Good luck figuring out the terms. Shady at best.

But, with all that said, India is the best place for efficient bootstrapping startups. Period. FYI Zoho is from (South) India.

The best example I can show you that this is valid advice is to set myself up in India and become really successful, which I will and let my lovely HN community know soon.

Ty

[quanticle]

It's true that no one will sue you for rounded corners in India. No, why go through the expense and publicity of a lawsuit, when you can simply bribe the local government and telecom monopoly to deny all your requests?

Electricity went out? Sorry, sir, but all our technicians are busy and we won't be able to come fix the lines for another two or three days. Need a faster internet connection? Sorry sir, we're not handling those requests right now. Need to move into a larger building? All of a sudden the building inspectors are looking very closely at the interior plans of the new office.

[litegeek]

This shows what a cliched mindset you have about an entire nation. Electricity doesn't goes out as much as you think. It's hardly an hour in an entire month and it depends on where you live more importantly. And as always you can get inverters for dead cheap here for un-interrupted power supply.

Faster internet connection? Again you have a cliched mentality. You can get an 8Mbps connection with 5min so far for this entire month for $20.

Wake up buddy, this idea that an entire nation is full of shit just because you read articles about a particular place in the news doesn't make sense.

By that logic, everyone in the United States should be eating only burgers, be ridiculously obese and die of heart attack before 30.

[001sky]

What the comment was highlighting was a culture of evasiveness and plausible deniabililty. ie, classic beuracratic tricks of the trade. the electric/internet/etc examples are just placeholders for any problem (mission critical) where you might be at the mercy of this type of behaviour. So, to summarize the stereo-typing is about a certain type of social-interaction, not about technology or intelligence or what not. You may (or may not) want to take issue with the accuracy of this claim, but at least such would be more en pointe.

[yummyfajitas]

An hour a month? I wish I lived in that part of India. When I was there, Thursday was typically the day we lost to power cuts. 1 paise for travel? Within city travel was 50-200rs. And $200/month for a good developer? Anyone I'd consider letting near my codebase was at least a lakh a month.

(All numbers for Pune, about 1-2 years ago.)

I did a startup in India, mainly for the cheap labor. I'd happily expand and set up shop in India again, depending on the circumstances. But lets be realistic, rather than pushing hype.

[ajays]

> By programmers, I mean real programmers. You can hire decent programmers for $150-$200 a month.

This shows you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. A decent programmer will cost you close to $1000/month; a good one with experience will cost you upwards of $2000 per month.

As always, you get what you pay for.

[litegeek]

Seriously?

Talk about all those dudes working in their dream MNC's like Wipro, etc?

Dude, everyone starts somewhere - The amount doesn't determine quality. If we go by that logic, you live in India and you're probably a shitty dude because you're not making anywhere as much as your American counter parts. Get over this mentality dude. Price != quality always.

[arjie]

FYI, your programmers are underpaid. Friends of mine who have degrees in the humanities make more than 500 USD a month as programmers working for Indian startups. If you made 200 USD a month, you won't be able to live anywhere halfway decent in Chennai.

[litegeek]

It's all about standards of living. There are people working in call centers for $150-200 and still living in Chennai. I'm not saying $200 is enough. I'm saying there are good, employable, but un-employed people in this range.

Example? Recent college grads who already code.

[linux_devil]

In a country where you need to pay 40% of your profits in taxes after minting small money after putting 5 years of efforts.

If you think hiring programmers at cheap price is maximizing profit , its exploitation my friend , it's called making profit on misery of unemployment situation in the country.

[litegeek]

>If you think hiring programmers at cheap price is maximizing profit , its exploitation my friend , it's called making profit on misery of unemployment situation in the country.

There are un-employed employable people in the $200 range. You'll never understand the scenario in India, because you're not from India. But, you're right, I have a very crude mindset about exploiting these people. I realize my mistake. Sorry.

[linux_devil]

I am from India my friend .

[thex86]

> It's safe to say that Southern India is pretty safe (much much safe) compared to North India, which is almost full of sex-starved assholes (vague generalizaion)

Please provide citations or stop pulling statistics out of your own biased opinions. As an Indian, nothing makes me more infuriated than to see this "Oh North India bad! South India good" thing. And I really don't see how this is even remotely related to the discussion and why you had to bring this in.

[qxf2]

Your numbers on most things are way off. I returned home end of last year and setup shop this year in Bangalore. I have access to Naukri's database of quality assurance engineers and their current salary listed. I also visited campuses to recruit fresh grads. $200/mo won't get you even fresh grads from the top 20 universities in my state. $60 is no longer rent - it's about 5 to 10 times that for a 2000 square foot 3 bedroom apartment that's not in a very posh area. Setting up a partnership, including legal fees cost me around $400. Travel, you are spot on in that cheap options exist. BTW, days of 2 rupee and 4 rupee bus rides are also over. It's about 5 times that in a regular bus.

I'm giving specific numbers here mainly because there may be Indians who want to return home and start here.

[litegeek]

I had Chennai in mind, when I wrote that comment because I know only Chennai and Delhi well (I'm from Delhi).

Banglore is expensive because of the sheer number of IT companies there.

Come to chennai:

I can get you:

a posh OFFICE SPACE (Not a fucking apartment) for $60 in a posh area.

a sole proprietorship for less than $100

a decent grad for $200 - but not from the top Universities, though. Why? Because it's a cliched mindset that the best people come from the best universities. Have you watched Ratatouille?

"Not anyone can become a great artist, but a great artist can come from anywhere."

Please, I urge you to refresh this kind of attitude (Heavier pay = better quality employee, Better University = better grad)

[qxf2]

Chennai is my native place and yes, it's cheaper than Bangalore but by less than 20%. Can you update your profile with your email or email me, I'd like details on the $60 office space.

I am aware that good people come from all universities. For me top university is a useful filter. When hiring, especially as a small company, I need some way to filter down to a smaller candidate pool to interview. So my thinking is: better university = higher probability of finding better grad.

[anoncowherd]

So which one is it, is South India very safe, or are encounters with "nasty criminals" common?

[dirkgently]

I'd like to know the price of ganjaa there. Seems to be very cheap because you are smoking too much of it.