[carlob]

It's not as simple as that: think about libel laws: if I say that you've stolen something, or that you've killed something and I actively try to ruin your reputation, then my 'opinion' of you is actually very damaging.

The same goes for holocaust denial, those who deny the death of millions of people risk repeating history, thus making their 'opinion' dangerous for society at large.

[throwit1979]

But you're not harming a living human being. At worst, you're minimizing a memory, which is a fundamantally emotional position.

As to the risk of repeating history: Anyone positing the holocaust didn't happen is competing in a marketplace of ideas where the evidence is overwhelmingly to the contrary. Not to mention fierce competition from the European equivalent to K-12 education.

It seems to me akin to criminalizing street vendors selling hot dogs made of ( sterilized, to minimize health counterarguments ) toe jam and ear wax. Very very few people are going to become customers. Except it's much worse, because you are criminalizing ideas.

[vidarh]

> But you're not harming a living human being.

Are you not? It would seem to pretty clearly defame everyone who have made claims to have witnessed holocaust and been in concentration camps. And in fact, holocaust denial is often explicitly framed in a way where defamation is a substantial part of the intent. So yes, you are harming living human beings even if we ignore the

> As to the risk of repeating history: Anyone positing the holocaust didn't happen is competing in a marketplace of ideas where the evidence is overwhelmingly to the contrary. Not to mention fierce competition from the European equivalent to K-12 education.

The rise of the nazis happened in a situation where it was competing in a marketplace of ideas where a substantial majority of the population o the countries involved had first hand experience with the effects of World War I, and despite that the nazi's still succeeded in getting enough support in elections to be able to form an elected government.

The nazi rise to power was a horrific demonstration of just how easy it is to ignore history even when the knowledge is widespread. I'm not even decided on whether or not these bans are necessary, but not out of any kind of fantasy belief that these kind of ideas can't gain support again.

There's more than enough surveys demonstrating scary numbers of people doubt facts that are disputed by far less dedicated crackpots than holocaust denials to the extent that it is hardly a defensible position to claim that current education systems are sufficient to prevent obviously wrong ideas from gaining substantial support.

> It seems to me akin to criminalizing street vendors selling hot dogs made of ( sterilized, to minimize health counterarguments ) toe jam and ear wax.

And that is, indeed, likely illegal pretty much everywhere and certainly in Europe. If your product does not prominently state that it is toe jam and ear wax, and in any way present it as hot dogs, you'd go down for misleading advertising and likely for fraud. And regardless of that, chances are high you'd be on the hook for health and safety violations. So that's not a very good example.

[philwelch]

It takes a very twisted mentality to put the Nazis forward as an example of the dangers of a free and democratic society that respects freedom of expression.

[vidarh]

Not a single country allows unlimited freedom of expression. Every single one, including the US, has substantial limitations based at least on situations where that speech harms others (e.g. slander/libel/defamation/incitement laws).

In that respect laws specifically targetting a very specific set of lies, that also happen to be defamation of a large group of people (and so potentially actionable based on other laws in many cases anyway, including in many cases in countries without laws against Holocaust denial) is one of the most targeted, limited such restrictions around.

[philwelch]

Holocaust denial is in the same vein of "defamation" as claiming that the Bush family are secret reptilians from outer space or that the moon landing didn't happen--there's no risk of confusing a reasonable person with these claims, nor do they especially fall under the banner of normal defamation.

The entire lesson of the Nazis is that awful things can happen when the State appoints itself as the unquestionable arbiter of truth and refuses to allow open discussion about its own dogma. Freedom of expression simply does not exist when governments have the power to rule facts into law by fiat and render them illegal to question or dispute.

[wslh]

Anyone positing the holocaust didn't happen is competing in a marketplace of ideas where the evidence is overwhelmingly to the contrary.

You can't believe a country like Germany with one of the strongest cultural and scientific traditions could have accept genocide of such magnitude.

[moocowduckquack]

Coming from the UK and having looked into the history of some of my country's behaviour during the height of empire, I have no problem believing that in the slightest. Peccavi.

[claudius]

I doubt you’d be allowed to sell stuff made from toe jam and ear wax for human consumption in most of Europe. Or, even if you were allowed to sell that stuff, you’d need a proper certificate, health and sanitary checks and ensure that your product is indeed safe.