[jballanc]

For me, the most poignant message in this talk is when Rich draws the contrast between learning an instrument, which no one pretends is an easy task, and learning a new programming language, which seems to be increasingly accompanied by "learn X in 5 days" type tutorials.

A performer who has already mastered one or more musical instruments will be better able to rapidly learn a new one, but a novice is going to need to toil away for years before they reach master-level proficiency. Similarly with programming, I think it is fine for languages to present themselves succinctly for the benefit of experienced developers, but I am highly suspicious of anyone who claims you can learn to program in less than, say, 2 years.

I also think this is something to keep in mind with the recent explosion of "alternative programming schools". You can hand someone a guitar and, in a handful of weeks, teach them all the cords for 10 popular tunes. That person can then find a street corner in the nearest city, set down their open guitar case, and play those ten songs in rotation and make some money...but have we created a new musician?

[jfarmer]

I'm one of the co-founders of Dev Bootcamp, although I'm no longer involved day-to-day. What it means to "learn to program" is nebulous. As you pointed out, a person regurgitating things they've seen is able to "program" in some sense.

What I can say that the priority is not so much teaching them X, Y, or Z framework, but teaching them what it means to "think like a programmer." You might not think that is teachable, but, well, empirically falsifiable. :)

I'd definitely call students who went through DBC "programmers." Many of them remark after graduating that they never realized how little they really knew. At the very least, we get them from unconscious incompetence to the bottom rung of conscious competence.

If all I were doing were teaching folks "cords[sic] from 10 popular tunes" I'd have no interest in doing it at all. Real programmers or bust.

I can't speak for anyone else, of course.

[jballanc]

I have always been a huge proponent of the concept of teaching the art of learning, as opposed to teaching a specific skill. My concern is that, as Rich discusses, truly learning to program is a slower process, at the outset, than learning how to piece together a handful of frameworks and code snippets from Stackoverflow.

A proper education lasts longer than the duration of the actual instruction, so I trust that some of these "short term" programs can still make programmers (and anecdotally, I've heard good things about Dev Bootcamp).

[wes-exp]

Favorite quotes on this:

"We should not sell humanity short by trying to solve the problem of beginners in our stuff. We need to make things for people to use, and we need to teach people and trust people to be able to learn how to do that"

"Just as we shouldn't target beginners in our designs... nor should we try to eliminate all effort. It's an anti-pattern. It's not going to yield a good instrument. It's okay for there to be effort."

[tom_b]

I'm particularly interested in the idea of programming practice. Hickey specifically mentions Coltrane, who apparently was famous for marathon practice.

As a workaday hacker, my own practice has been more sporadic than I want. This talk reminded me that practice needs to be structured and purposeful. And regularly done.

[saraid216]

> learning an instrument, which no one pretends is an easy task

Google "learn to play the guitar in 5 days".

[tinco]

> which seems to be increasingly accompanied by

I learned to program from a 'learn X in 24 hours' book over 10 years ago.