[banachtarski]

It's a fine line and slippery slope to be sure. I think that after programming for many years though, a seasoned developer should have honed instincts as to what is probably an established pattern and what isn't. For me, the decision was made when I found I was wasting more time wrestling with the framework rather than just using it.

[astrodust]

What framework were you having such a hard time with? Most you need to do it "their way" or you'll be going against the grain all the time.

I've spent a long time in Rails and it solves most Web + CRUD problems well enough. When it doesn't you have options.

Recently I've been doing more NodeJS stuff which requires a completely different mind-set. If you try and do Rails in NodeJS you will fail, and vice-versa. Same goes for something like Django.

This is why picking a framework that approximates your requirements and matches with your philosophy as closely as possible is essential.

Going without a framework is almost always a disaster. At the very least pick one that's thin enough it doesn't get in the way.

[banachtarski]

Yea that's just the thing. I don't build web apps. I was a backend developer and there are lot of things that have to happen on the backend that doesn't fit in the standard CRUD or MVC pattern.

I think you're overgeneralizing on the last point. I've shipped things without a framework that have been some of the most stable pieces of software I've written.