[nullc]

It's pretty sad, considering that if the buyer sent the bitcoin address to send to through paypal you can prove to paypal cryptographically beyond any and all doubt that you really sent the coins.

Even when someone isn't claiming their account was hacked (which would be a problem no amount of cryptographic proof would solve) paypal simply doesn't care. I guess that really sums up paypal: Paypal doesn't care.

[phoboslab]

I guess it's a bit more specific: PayPal doesn't care about sellers.

I sell a JavaScript Game Engine[1] and have made the exact same experience over and over again. Someone buys it, I send out the license email and the download link and 2 days later I see a chargeback. I can show PayPal screengrabs of the license email and database records, showing that my software really has been downloaded from the account in question. They don't care. It's not "proof of shipment" if the shipment doesn't go through physical mail that supports tracking.

I have since come to terms with the fact. I see it as simple piracy - it still annoys me, but I have to live with it.

Funny thing is: if someone sends me an email, saying he's not happy with my software, I always give them a full refund - which somehow isn't nearly as taxing on my mind as PayPal chargebacks.

[1] http://impactjs.com/

[jedberg]

Why not send a small postcard with the license key that requires them to sign to get the postcard? Give them an instant key good for 14 days and then make them use the one on the postcard for long term use. Then you'll have your proof (and be pretty close to PayPal's chargeback limit)

[bitJericho]

You don't need to send him a different key in the post. Give him the key digitally and send the same key via post.

[jedberg]

The reason you don't want to do that is because they can just reject the postcard. That's why you have to give them needed info on the card. The point of the temp key is so they can get immediate satisfaction.

[bitJericho]

You could offer other services that having access to a valid key gives you, such as support, updates, community, so on.

[velik_m]

That's a pretty good idea, customers might even appreciate the "thank you" note. You do need to get their address though.

[jedberg]

Which is an extra layer of fraud protection. :)

[lincolnq]

If I bought software and they were going to send me a postcard with a license key, I would be pretty annoyed.

[jedberg]

Why? You'd get one via email right away, you'd just have to enter the one from the postcard when it arrived.

[dragonwriter]

> Why not send a small postcard with the license key

Sending a postcard with a license key certainly gives someone the license key, but whether its the person to whom it is mailed or not is less certain.

[Tomte]

The difference is probably that in your case you're showing self-produced evidence that you can easily and arbitrarily create, while in the case of physical shipment another party confirms the shipment.

[parliament32]

I've never sold anything via PayPal, but how does "proof of shipment" prove anything? If I sold you, say, a violin for a thousand bucks, then shipped you a box with a couple bricks inside it, would PayPal side with me? Yes, I have a tracking number that says I shipped a 5 lb package to him...

If yes, then couldn't I inversely buy an expensive item, then take it out of the box, replace it with bricks, and send PayPal pictures of me getting "scammed"? Would I get my money refunded?

"Proof of shipment" shouldn't mean anything.

[jasonlotito]

> PayPal doesn't care about sellers.

Credit card companies. And it's not that they don't care about sellers. It's that they care more about the card holders. Consider the protection they afford card holders for card-not-present purchases. 100% protection.

PayPal doesn't have some immunity to that protection. Open your own merchant account, and you'll have the same issues.

> I see it as simple piracy

When it's the card holder claiming a chargeback for an otherwise legitimate purchase, it's known as friendly fraud. Not so friendly. And generally, it's worse than piracy. Normally you are charged for a chargeback (not sure if PayPal charges you a chargeback fee). So in those cases, you actually lose real money, as opposed to piracy.

[jellicle]

Credit card companies have that policy because it's the law. Before it was the law, they didn't have that policy.

Debit cards are not covered by the same law. Some banks insulate debit card holders from losses, some do not.

[driverdan]

There's an easy solution. STOP USING PAYPAL! When will people learn that PayPal is shit?

[dan1234]

I don't think you can use eBay without using paypal.