[wpietri]

If you are a looking for a name for that feeling, it's "entitled". As in, "As a guy, I am entitled not to be bothered by the problems women have getting into programming."

To which I say: so what? Does it all have to be about you?

Me, I have a cousin. She's 7. At the family reunion, she saw me using a screwdriver to take something apart. She immediately elbowed her way into the seat next to me, and politely insisted on me giving her the screwdriver. She then helped me take apart, fix, and reassemble the broken thing. She's a born engineer.

With God (or, our local equivalent, Paul Graham) as my witness, I declare: I'm getting her into tech. She's a natural, and I want to learn about anything that might keep her from a STEM career. Anybody who thinks that isn't relevant on a site called Hacker News can fuck right off.

[cousin_it]

If you want to prove that fewer women than men become programmers because of obstacles, it's not enough to point out the obstacles faced by women, you also need to argue that the obstacles faced by men are less severe. I think you'll have a hard time arguing that, considering how nerdy guys are treated in school by both girls and other guys. Girls who go into programming don't take such a big hit in attractiveness.

[wpietri]

Why would I have to prove it?

Given that "fewer women become X because of societal obstacles" has been proven true for many professions over the last couple of centuries, I think the burden of proof is on somebody who wants to claim that programming is some strange special exemption.

[cousin_it]

I don't think programming is an exception, it's probably similar to many other jobs where we haven't proved that societal obstacles are the reason.

[jacalata]

They don't? Can you prove that?

[H4wk_cz]

I would say women who study computer science get a huge boost in attractiveness. Every year there are around 100 boys and 2-5 girls in first year of computer science at my university. As a computer science student you don't see many other girls, so after a while the girls can choose whoever they want. To be honest it's really sad, there are girls who realized that they can date two guys at the same time. The guys know about each other.

[joyeuse6701]

Given how many times this has come up on this site, it is becoming more akin to beating a dead horse and may serve to simply annoy and hurt the 'women in tech movement' if you will, than help it. I have yet to see proof of causation between male social tendencies in tech industry and a barrier to entry for women in tech industries. Anecdotes are not substantial. As you say, so what? Does it all have to be about you?

I have a hunch that on account of the fact that your cousin is female and has engineering proclivities that you will give her significant unabated attention, hell you swore before God...This all really because she is female regardless if reality requires extra help or not (unproven as of yet). I'm pretty sure that's sexist entitlement.

[wpietri]

I have yet to see proof that tech is any different than medicine or law, where societal barriers were demonstrably the only things keeping women from equal participation. The centuries of discrimination, both blatant and subtle, were very substantial.

Also, the pseudo-clever "nuh-uh, you're the real sexist" stuff is the kind of bullshit that I only ever see from anonymous accounts. If you want to make (idiotic) personal accusations, own your words.

[madao]

Totally and wholeheartedly agree, I do not think gender has anything to do with it. It should be more about a willingness to learn and an interest in the subject.

[Killswitch]

Agreed. If woman want to be programmers they will. It's just that men gravitate towards it more... I don't see anybody writing articles titled "Why aren't more men playing with barbies and makeup?"

Edit: not saying men don't. I grew up in a household of girls. I DID play with barbies. Not makeup though.

[greyfade]

But a lot of women (more than you'd think) are actively told from an early age that they are not capable of learning math, and that they can't reasonably have a successful career in science or engineering.

This even despite the fact that there are a lot of other women who weren't taught this nonsense, and have been very successful in scientific and engineering fields.

I don't think it's a matter of women not gravitating toward programming. It's more likely a matter of girls being taught that they're not capable of it and not having successful role models who are in these industries.

[wpietri]

If you think it's a problem that men aren't playing with makeup, write the article. Or heck, just read one of the ones that Google will find you.

Also, note that "it's just that men gravitate towards it more" is not an explanation. It's a way of avoiding actually thinking about the topic. Gravity is about mass, not gender.

[georgiecasey]

jesus that was an angry reply! my comment had nothing to do with the subject matter and everything to do with how frequently it is talked about here and in the 'community', with the same points and round-about discussion

[wpietri]

So it's just coincidence that, out of all the common topics on HN, this is the only one you've complained about?

The reason some of us talk about it is that it's important to us. Just like every article here. Do you complain about every post on HN that isn't personally important to you? No, you skim on by. Why would you click through and comment negatively on this one? Because you want us to stop talking about it. You might ask yourself why.