[hga]

No, actually. Outside of Texas, the exception that proves the rule, you are not allowed to use lethal force to protect property.

As I understand Texas law (which I wouldn't surprise to find judicially nullified someday, like similar Oklahoma law), you are allowed to use lethal force on someone stealing your property after a verbal warning.

Which is in no way analogous to the point you're making. US law very much does not support "self-help" as its called to redress wrongs after the fact.

[jbooth]

I'm pretty sure the castle doctrine applies in most states?

Hell, 'stand your ground' applies in a decent plurality of states these days.

[hga]

Weak Castle Doctrine, no duty to retreat in your home, exists in 46 states according to Wikipedia, which sounds about right. E.g. assume you have to retreat from your home in Massachusetts, no matter the current law, case law or circumstances.

Stand Your Ground in 22 states. As in no duty to retreat any place you have a right to be, which prevents second guessing from the calm and comfort of a courtroom. Or as Oliver Wendell Holmes put it in the 1921 US Supreme Court case Brown v. United States, "Detached reflection cannot be demanded in the presence of an uplifted knife."

[jbooth]

"E.g. assume you have to retreat from your home in Massachusetts, no matter the current law, case law or circumstances."

Why?

[hga]

Because that's what the courts want very badly, at least as of the '80s. Several rounds of the solidly Democratic legislature passing "this time we mean it!" laws and the courts judicially nullifying as much as they could.

In one case I "watched" by reading the Boston Globe as it was tried, a man was sent to prison because he wasn't willing to leave his sleep daughter to the tender mercies of an home invader.

Too many people wonder why Michael Dukakis won only 10 states in 1988; not those of us in the the state who were paying attention to e.g. these judges he elevated to the bench.

[jbooth]

In the 80s? It's 2013, man, get with the times and start ripping on Chicago.

In this decade, I'd go to the anecdote from WI last year of the dude who, upon a high school party being broken up by the cops next door, shot a kid hiding from the cops on his porch and wasn't charged.

[hga]

I'm referring to the '80s because that was when I was residing in Massachusetts, and that was what I could look forward to if I used lethal force in self-defense. Also an automatic 1st degree murder trial, "Let the jury sort it out" was the AG's idea of prosecutorial discretion.

As for the Wisconson case you're referring to, the facts not surprisingly paint a very different picture. Per this news item: http://fox6now.com/2012/05/05/photos-of-bo-morrison-crime-sc... and others, the porch was only technically one, it was fully enclosed and furnished like an interior room, had an appliance (fridge/freezer?) and other indoor style stuff, and critically, from looking at the outside, it appears to be fully a part of the house. I say critically because the outdoor pictures make it very clear this can be legitimately scored as a home invasion, whatever friends and family of the deceased propagandize.

And per this from the shooter's wife, "[she] told investigators she heard her husband say, “What are you doing in my house” twice, then “Stay where you are” twice, and later a single shot was fired."

So only "weak", no duty to retreat (in 46 states) Castle Doctrine comes into play. He was not shot out of the blue or from behind, there was a confrontation, so as long as the couple have proper account of the story and the authorities don't catch them lying the failure to prosecute looks like its solid. Just like the Zimmerman/Martin was before it become a political show trial.

ADDED: Not surprisingly for a state that was until that year solid Blue, Wisconsin as of 2010 didn't have a strong Castle Doctrine, the case law explicitly says "The doctrine is for defensive and not offensive purposes."

When you hear "unbelievable" stories like this, you should be suspicious, they're generally unbelievable because they're flatly not true, except in the sense of Revolutionary Truth, which as techies we shouldn't approve of (our computers do not care about politics, just that 1 + 1 = 010).

[cobrausn]

I think he was referencing the events of the 80s because there was such a backlash to it that it led directly to events like you describe. The middle ground is dead.