[wslh]

> If users buy a Windows Phone expecting to have a YouTube app, when one is not legally available, it is their problem.

The problem is when you extrapolate this reasoning:

- Do you want support for nvidia cards on Linux?

- Do you want to connect to a windows share from Linux or OSX?

- Do you want to print to a windows share from Linux or OSX?

And so on. I think Microsoft is more open than Google in a broader sense. My mantra is: you can't reverse engineer the cloud.

[beagle3]

Your arguments are nonsensical:

- Yes, I do want to view SilverLight videos on Linux. But I can't. Because Microsoft won't let me (or Xamarin or Ximian) implement the DRM parts.

- Yes, I do check that an nvidia card is supported on Linux before I buy it; That's why, for example, I avoid AMD, and it IS my problem if I buy an AMD card for which there is no good driver on Linux

> I think Microsoft is more open than Google in a broader sense. My mantra is: you can't reverse engineer the cloud.

The implied argument (Microsoft is more open because you CAN reverse engineer their products) is complete bullsh*t. Evidence: http://www.advogato.org/article/101.html

[wslh]

Your arguments are nonsensical

I am neither trying to write a formal proof here nor defending Microsoft in all their battles. I tried to argue against pervasive double standards: we love free software but Google business is not harmed publishing Chrome source code like Microsoft business is publishing the code of Microsoft Windows. Google is harmed if everyone install AdBlock (you can read something along these lines in their investor reports) or connects to their search engine without showing any ad.

[jorgecastillo]

Even Apple has published plenty of open source code (non GUI stuff). Microsoft doesn't make significant open source contributions, because they don't get open source or because the only thing that makes them valuable is their huge desktop market share.

[kvb]

Even at Microsoft there are several open source projects (though maybe fewer than you'd hope for a company their size). See F# for one compelling (IMO) example. And it's not the same thing, but Microsoft publishes way more research than the other tech giants.

[wslh]

I am not defending Microsoft actions (even if they make some few open source contributions).

I just said that Google Achilles' heel is in another place and because we have a bias in favor of free software we are not seeing the big picture clearly.

[jorgecastillo]

I have no bias in favor of free software. I do think open source is awesome. I do think open source UNIX-like systems are awesome. I do think open source programming languages are awesome. With all this said I use whatever software I like and can afford. I don't think open source software is inherently better, it is inherently more awesome but not necessarily better. My favorite desktop OSes are OpenBSD, OS X & Linux, I am only using Linux currently. My favorite GUIs are Cocoa & KDE.

[mncolinlee]

- Samba and Wine were both created using reverse engineering. Microsoft frequently made changes that broke both products. Don't get me started on Microsoft's PPTP and Kerberos. - Nvidia produced their own closed drivers on Linux. How does that involve Microsoft?

Are you really making the argument that if your application doesn't encrypt its interfaces, then you're open?

[wslh]

Before answering your question my extended rant is here: http://blog.nektra.com/main/2012/06/01/reverse-engineering-a...

Samba and Wine were both created using reverse engineering. Microsoft frequently made changes that broke both products. Don't get me started on Microsoft's PPTP and Kerberos. - Nvidia produced their own closed drivers on Linux. How does that involve Microsoft?

You agree with me then! that was my point. You can't reverse engineer Google Search, you can't connect with it in an unlimited way (except using web scraping techniques or using the restricted local search API). With Microsoft you can reverse engineer it.

And I have an story to tell: my company started selling a full API for a Microsoft product without one. Not only we reverse engineered the product but we built a complete API on top. One day Microsoft QA call us if they can help to test the compatibility of our product in operating systems under development.

[jorgecastillo]

One big difference is that you can choose to use or not to use Google Search. For all intents and purposes you can't avoid using Microsoft products.

[wslh]

You can't avoid AdWords. Have you tried to sell your software products via Bing/Yahoo? There is no audience there.

[jorgecastillo]

I am only a consumer so I wouldn't know about such issues. Maybe in the future my opinion of Google will change, but so far my experience with Google has been very positive. I can not say the same about Microsoft.

[wslh]

Did you hear about Google Reader?

[asterix9]

One difference is that Microsoft and Nvidia are considered evil and are derided for it and they don't pretend that SMB or graphics drivers are open. While Google has a 'do no evil' official policy which many folks seem to think they comply with. Similarly, with regards to openness.

[moutarde]

Google has obligations (both legal and moral) to both the content providers of YouTube and to the organisations who buy adverts on it. In order to 'not be evil' they have to take actions that respect these obligations.

Microsoft's original version of the app either:

a) deprived YouTube partners of their share of the revenue from adversing

b) caused advertisers to be charged for adverts that were not shown

The download feature also posed a problem to content providers who only hold a streaming licence to their content. If it didn't respect YouTube's no mobile flag (I'm unsure about this but it seems possible) it would also have caused issues for content providers who only held non-mobile streaming rights.

Microsoft now has a new version of the software that supposedly corrects these problems and is whining about openness and anti-trust. But why should Google now trust them? They treated not only Google, but also their partners and advertisers, like dirt. Now they want special treatment. It's like walking into someone's shop, insulting both their sales staff and their customers, then next week coming back and asking for discount.

How is Google being evil by imposing restrictions on a known bad actor in order to protect their partners?

[kvb]

Did Google provide the APIs required for MSFT to show ads? Did Google's obligations to content owners not apply to the other platforms where ad-free official clients existed?

[beagle3]

> Did Google provide the APIs required for MSFT to show ads?

Yes. The API is an HTML5 iframe, (and it takes care of both movie and ads). Microsoft refused to use that API for their own reasons.

> Did Google's obligations to content owners not apply to the other platforms where ad-free official clients existed?

The iOS client is the only ad-free official clients in existence. It was created in 2007 with a five year license agreement to Apple. I have no knowledge of the details, but it is possible that Apple actually paid in lieu of showing ads.

Either way, there is no reason an 2007 agreement between Google and Apple should apply to Microsoft in 2013.

[paulftw]

I think single Main Reason why Google requires 3rd parties to use an iframe is that it keeps them in control of when and how ads are shown, what can be rewinded, etc. Without updating the 3rd party app and republishing it to all stores.

They loosen this requirement for google's own youtube clients because they can push new version of those apps whenever they like. They had no guarantee that MSFT would respond to their requests for changes in a timely manner in the future.

Why didn't MSFT want to use an iframe? Because arrogant ignorance of the open standard of HTML5 is part of company DNA. Any web developer can rant for hours how crappy IE6-9 are and what a drag it is to maintain compatibility with IE when you are building a modern webapp.

To remind everyone that IE11 will be dead on arrival, I'm copying some html5test results: Chrome - 463 Firefox - 410 Safari - 378 IE 11 - 355

But if MSFT bothered to properly implement HTML5 then a) they wouldn't have difficulty building a youtube app in accordance to the google's terms and conditions b) WP users would enjoy better browsing experience c) developers wouldn't have to deal with the compatibility mess caused primarily by IE6-10 and not yet released IE11

Everyone would win.

[moutarde]

> Yes. The API is an HTML5 iframe

YouTube also offers a Flash based API to show videos with adverts. If HTML5 wasn't feasible for Microsoft they could have paid Adobe for a licence to use the Flash runtime in their YouTube app.

[amanne]

>Google has obligations (both legal and moral) to both the content providers of YouTube and to the organisations who buy adverts on it. In order to 'not be evil' they have to take actions that respect these obligations.

Aren't content providers losing revenue because Google refuses to make a Youtube App for Windows Phone in an effort to cripple it?

The latest numbers peg WP's marketshare at 3 to 10% in various countries. Assuming a one to one equivalence of users and views, content providers are losing ~3 to 10% of revenue because of Google's dithering on this to help Android.

I would assume both content providers and ad buyers would benefit if Google makes an official Youtube app or allowed Microsoft's version with ads in it. Am I wrong?

If Google wanted to fulfill it's obligations to content providers and advertisers, they would do what Amazon does with Kindle and have a proper app on every platform that lets them publish one.

The fact that they don't shows that the reason is all about Android and not about Youtube.

[beagle3]

> Aren't content providers losing revenue because Google refuses to make a Youtube App for Windows Phone?

If those Windows Phone users want to watch said content, they can do so in their web browser.

> The latest numbers peg WP's marketshare at 3 to 10% in various countries. Assuming a one to one equivalence of users and views, content providers are losing ~3 to 10% of revenue because of Google's dithering on this

That assumes that those people will not watch that movie anyway (on a desktop, on a friend's phone, or on the WP using the browser) - which is a completely bogus assumption.

> I would assume both content providers and ad buyers would benefit if Google makes an official Youtube app or allowed Microsoft's version with ads in it. Am I wrong?

The would also benefit if Google gave a free android phone to all WP users so they can watch it. So? Google is not a charity. They set terms and conditions for implementing a YouTube app. There are tens of youtube apps for both iphone and android that abide these rules (not talking about Google's official apps here! see e.g. Jasmine on iOS).

Microsoft insists on not observing the terms and conditions, and then blames google.

> they would do what Amazon does with Kindle and have a proper app on every platform that lets them publish one.

There's no kindle app for Linux. Or the Raspberry Pi. Or the the BeagleBone Black. Or the Chumby. or my smart Vizio TV. And yes, I run all these platforms at home. Does that mean Amazon doesn't care about Kindle content? (incidentally, the Chumby, Vizio and Linux all have native apps for YouTube, and each of them has sold more units than the Windows Phone).

> The fact that they don't shows that the reason is all about Android and not about Youtube.

Next time, you should start with the facts and work out to a logical conclusion, rather than starting with a conclusion you want, and trying to fit the facts into it.

[amanne]

>If those Windows Phone users want to watch said content, they can do so in their web browser.

>That assumes that those people will not watch that movie anyway (on a desktop, on a friend's phone, or on the WP using the browser) - which is a completely bogus assumption.

The degraded experience causes many folks to leave the web app instead of going on to watch more videos, especially related ones. Also assuming that fickle users with low attention span are going to remember to search for the video later on on their other devices is also a bogus assumption.

Lack of an officially sanctioned solution definitely hurts content producers.

>(incidentally, the Chumby, Vizio and Linux all have native apps for YouTube, and each of them has sold more units than the Windows Phone).

Just Nokia seems to have sold 20 million phones in the past few quarters.

Anyway, if Windows Phone has very few users, how are the content producers hurt if they watch videos without ads?

How are the same number of WP users simultaneously not worth monetizing by YouTube enough to make an official app and at the same time hurt their revenues if not monetized by being shown ads to?

Even Vimeo with its puny marketshare and revenues compared to Youtube has developed an official Windows Phone app!

[baddox]

> - Do you want support for nvidia cards on Linux?

Yes, but if I install Linux expecting to have support for nvidia cards, it is my problem.

> - Do you want to connect to a windows share from Linux or OSX?

Yes, but if I install Linux or OS X expecting to connect to a Windows share, it is my problem.

> - Do you want to print to a windows share from Linux or OSX?

Yes, but if I install Linux or OS X expecting to print to a windows share, it is my problem.

There is no problem when you extrapolate this reasoning.

[wslh]

No, it's not only your problem.

If Google is a monopoly and this is probed in some court (EU/US) the issue will crystallize in another way.

Meanwhile, it can be analyzed in an ethical way and some people think that the problem extends beyond you.

[baddox]

No one said "only your problem" until you just then.

[wslh]

It doesn't make a big difference in this context.

[Mikeb85]

This has to be a joke.... Microsoft has tried their best to prevent Linux from working or even existing... The fact that Linux hackers are smarter than them doesn't make them open...