[Sauer_Kraut]

"I know it for the same reason I know unicorns and leprechauns don't exist - there is no credible evidence supporting it."

Of course there is no credible evidence when evidence is known to be actively suppressed. See: 'Intel Laundering.'

Also the US boasts that spying resulted in thwarted attempts. Where are those court cases? More importantly, where are the bodies of those involved? Sure is easy to not have credible evidence when all evidence aside from one sided snippets and meaningless statistics is never published.

edit: diminoten sure shifts goal posts around a lot. Changing persons to US persons, etc.

[diminoten]

So you're arguing that there is no evidence because the NSA is so good at what they do, they've successfully hidden all operational evidence from the public for their entire time of existence?

Is Snowden the first mistake the NSA has ever made, in your eyes, then?

[Sauer_Kraut]

No, no.

edit: Tried to respond below but have been "submitting too fast" while submitting nothing for far too long to care to wait more.

I am not saying the NSA has flawless execution, you are the one repeating it for whatever reason.

I'm saying the NSA/Administration when pushed had to put out something that showed the spying was 'working.' In response they said multiples of domestic plots were foiled. Given the lack of full disclosure as to what the US's secret laws are secretly doing, we are forced to parse the headlines and the body count of the population for information on what has happened, where people went.

Problem is there is only a handful of incidents revealed to the public. The Boston bombers don't count because even though they fit NSA criteria for observation they apparently had no clue about their actions. The Al-Shabaab money provider was explicitly mentioned, so that is one.

Since we know the US kidnaps and tortures people, then makes every attempt to have the guilty escape[1], we don't require further evidence to ask the questions:

Where are the bodies, living or dead, of the others involved in domestic cases the NSA said they helped foil? The NSA says the program is for terrorists, the US government is known to rendition their victims away to be tortured under claims of them being terrorists. This has been documented enough to appease you.

If the NSA's spying program is not meant to result in the kidnapping and torture of others, what is it for? Bringing people to court?

Again, where are those involved in the domestic incidents cited as being foiled by the NSA?

Not all in court, that is for sure.

[1] http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2013/07/18/how_a_cia_off...

[diminoten]

So why, exactly, is there no evidence that US citizens on US soil are being "renditioned" or otherwise extrajudiciously held as a result of NSA data collection?

Because, if you'll recall, that's what we were talking about.

[APoliteRequest]

"Because, if you'll recall, that's what we were talking about."

This thread is called 'The NSA Is Commandeering the Internet.' Throughout it you have been attempting to diminish or shift the subject to "US citizens on US soil."

Please stop.

edit: I just noticed you took the subject of CIA renditions and attempted to turn it into a "US citizens on US soil" subject as you have done to the others in this thread. While completely ignoring the subject you made the response to.

What the heck, guy.

[diminoten]

Can you point out what you're talking about? I've been responding a lot of places, and HN isn't exactly great about keeping track of conversations.

[diminoten]

Then what are you saying, if not that the lack of evidence is only because the NSA is flawless in its execution?