Ask HN: Do I need to go to college?

[advicethrowaway]

I'm a senior in high school and am deciding between attending UT Austin for CompSci or skipping that and moving to San Francisco to work at a startup.

I have about 3-4 years experience in web development, and 1-2 years Android development. I have worked at four tech companies. I'm currently paid 31k as a front-end web developer at medium sized company while being the lead Android developer for an established startup on the side.

I have a pretty well fleshed out github account and a long list of completed side projects.

I don't particularly enjoy school nor debt, and I'm not convinced a Computer Science degree would be fully utilized in a career in web and android development.

Will startups take a fresh high school grad seriously? Is it a mistake to not go to college despite my experience?

What would you do?

EDIT:

Thanks for the advice, everyone. I really appreciate it.

A few follow up questions:

With my qualifications, how likely is it that I could land an internship in San Francisco this coming summer?

I'm currently learning many new (to me) technologies, ramping up my open source activity, and writing a blog. Is there anything else I should to do increase my chances?

[mynewwork]

Go to school. You'll have an uphill battle for the rest of your life if you don't. Your resume will always be viewed with a bit of suspicion if you don't have a degree, you'll be expected to do more to prove there aren't gaps in your self-education. That's if anyone looks are your resume at all, many places HR won't bother without the degree. A github profile and a network of people who know your skills are both huge assets to finding work, but the lack of degree will always cause difficulties.

Plus, right now you're doing web and android dev, but maybe you'll take a class that will open your eyes to other areas. Maybe you'll find out you love compilers or computer vision or parallel computation.

There are a lot of people on HN who love to be contrarian or want to beat the system by proving they could accomplish X without a formal education which they believe is more about credentials than actual education. But the truth is, not having the degree is just going to make your life a lot harder, plus you might miss out on learning things you wouldn't self-study.

[andrewvc]

I skipped college (dropped out of a community college to be precise, took exactly on CS course). I'm a well paid dev, and I have no trouble getting work. I worked my ass off, studied a CS curriculum on my own (before coursera and general assembly, I just bought books and read articles), and I've never had more debt than cash in my life. Of course, missing out on the college experience sucked, but we don't all take the same path in life.

Of course, I'm good at self-promotion and I'm good at networking. Now, I'm the one interviewing college grads, and I gotta tell ya, it's amazing how many can barely write a for loop.

[ignostic]

> "you might miss out on learning things you wouldn't self-study."

This is true: it would be wise to be honest with yourself on this point. I've personally read more textbooks since graduating than I did in college; it's not impossible, but it is very very hard to stay focused in self-study.

[advicethrowaway]

I completely agree. I know that I won't be able to self-teach everything that I would learn in college.

[ajpos]

This is maybe not true given the right parameters. Typically, people "self-study" on a whim. Probably in the evenings or on weekends. They go for about 30 minutes and then quit, saying, "I feel good about this, I'm going to study like this 3x a week."

And then they utterly faily, because self-study is not one of their pre-established habits.

If you make a schedule mimicking a college curriculum (during the weekday, with a lunch hour, 15 minute breaks, etc) like you would with an actual class, and use the "tuition money" to pay instead for a good desk with ample room for notes and a solid reading light, then I bet almost anyone could do a college education on their own.

It's all mental, and in my experience, mindsets can be changed with the right training. It's like learning to brush your teeth, except you're an adult now.

[keiferski]

The bigger point though is that college isn't all mental. If you went through college hunched over a desk studying, and doing nothing else, then sure, you can replicate that at home.

[advicethrowaway]

Great advice, especially:

>plus you might miss out on learning things you wouldn't self-study.

I'm certain there are subjects I would love to build products around but I won't be able to teach myself as adequately alone.

[bennyg]

Plus: girls and things that aren't CS.

Creativity needs outside experiences and knowledge not in your domain to flourish. Go to college - it's one of the easiest places to get a large breadth of that stuff.

[jgg]

Crazy advice: go to college for something harder/more challenging than CS, and then use that to complement your programming skill later.

CS was mostly a waste of time for me. I worked through a lot of SICP in highschool and was teaching myself Haskell after learning a lot of web development stuff.

However, I don't regret the formal mathematics classes that I've taken, as well as some interesting electives (like an algebra/number theory course that focused on nothing but using and attacking RSA, which was a joint CS/Math course). Taking Algorithms was good for me too, even if I could already hack on harder stuff than my classmates. So, I major in something other than CS.

Keep in mind that you also might decide that you hate working in programming altogether, as I did, so being a generalist might be a good idea. Major in math, philosophy or a foriegn language (or whatever else interests you). You'll learn, have a possible back-up and escape with a degree, if you need one.

I think college has become diluted to some degree (I rail against it a lot, even moreso now that my old university did away with English 101 for a lot of majors because it's "too hard"), but you can always challenge yourself. I think people with a passion always can outdo their degrees, especially in CS, but I think viewing your life as: "waste my time at college" xor "go live in the valley" is a really bad idea at this point.

[ignostic]

It depends on your goals - no one can give you advice on the path you should take if they don't know your destination.

Do you want to be an entrepreneur? Do you want to build a product and company, work for startups, or work in enterprise software development?

If you want to work in big business (a decent and potentially low-stress path if you want a good wage, despite what people here might tell you) you should probably go to college. If you don't know, you should probably go to college. If you know you

I did go to college, and I'm glad I have a significant understanding of philosophy, writing, and chemistry that I would not otherwise have discovered. That said, it was a complete waste of time and money for me. I could be making the same amount I am now, and I would have many thousands more in savings.

Degrees are filters for many low-level positions, but no one has asked me whether I have a degree in years. At this point, it's all about experience and skills. The exception might be Fortune 100 companies that still seem to care a great deal about your formal education. Despite having a degree, I wouldn't want to work for these companies anyway. It shows a type of hierarchical rigid thinking and structure that I would like to avoid.

If you do decide to skip college, I'd strongly advise you to work on CS theory AND the supplementary skills you would have learned in college. Pick up and read some textbooks on the basic subjects you would have studied. Learning more about programming and development is good, but I see value in diverse knowledge.

[advicethrowaway]

Thanks for the advice.

>Do you want to be an entrepreneur? Do you want to build a product and company, work for startups, or work in enterprise software development?

I want to be an entrepreneur, running my own company on organic growth rather than VC money. I don't have a problem with being acquired but I don't want to be using other peoples' money.

But before I attempt that I want to work as an employee of startups to gain business experience, making mistakes and learning from them while still earning a salary.

[Randgalt]

I've been very successful as a programmer without having gone to college. However, the first few jobs were tough to get. Going to college will make your first jobs easier.

[ignostic]

Excellent TL;DR here.

[late2part]

College serves three or four purposes:

1. Teaches you how to get things done in a structured environment 2. Teaches you how to think more abstractly 3. Teaches you social expectations of a professiona/intellectual environment 4. Gives you an 'achievement' with a brand that allows you to say "I did this."

Some college is good. I think you can achieve most of the above without finishing college. You can achieve all of the above without going to college.

[ignostic]

I disagree with points 1-3.

1- Undergrad college experience consists of homework and test, perhaps with the occassional group project or presentation thrown in. This is so far removed from what non-academics do at work that it's hilarious.

2- On what grounds do you say that college teaches you abstract thinking. In truth, studies have found that college does no such thing for most majors.[1] The problem is that most colleges and universities are more interested in graduate students and research. Almost every test I took in college was multiple choice - widely regarded as the least-effective way to teach critical thinking. There are so many people in your classes that the professors don't have time to do anything but put you through the degree mill, memorize-and-repeat style.

3- My college was basically a slightly more intense version of high school. See (1). I do agree that you learn about an intellectual environment, but many teachers have never worked in an actual professional non-academic environment in their lives. Your PhD in computer science knows computer science, but don't count on them being able to teach you how to overcome organizational obstacles.

[1] http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2011/01/18/study_finds_la... http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2013/05/20/studies-challe...

[swalsh]

I left college early to start my career. In this market it's pretty easy to "make it" without a degree. However there are things a degree gives you that most people don't think about. Part of this might be because i'm on the East coast where education is a big part of who you are, but I've experienced a huge social stigma. There's an extra burden on you when you don't have a degree. That stigma will impact you professionally, but also socially. You'll want to hang out with people who you view as your peers. The thing is that most of those people went the standard route. I've found the easiest way to cope is to just not bring it up. When it does come up, I've had good friends change the way they talk to you. I'm always straight up with my bosses, but with friends and coworkers it depends.

Secondly, more important then what you learn (though what you learn is important) is the network you build. There's a saying, A players hire A players, B players hire C players and so on. Have you ever wondered who hired the B players? Usually its B players who got lucky. A lot of those B players are like us. You probably want to work with other A players, but they all met in college, and when one goes to a new company the rest of their posse follows. So that recruiter who's getting you a job is probably going to get you into a B role if you're good, but you're not going to be working with people who are at the top of their game. If your goal is to be the best you can be, you need to work with the people who are the best.

4 years is a big part of your life, but trust me. I wish i would have made the full investment. It would have made life easier.

[jeheald]

NO NO NO NO NO NO!!! There are only three fields that require a college education: law, medicine and engineering. Furthermore, college educations in America are grossly overpriced. You will have a degree that doesn't get you anything more in 4 years than working your ass off will get you 4 years from now, plus you'll have loads of debt. DO NOT WASTE YOUR TIME, TALENT OR MONEY ON COLLEGE!!!

If you want a long, reasoned argument, drop me a line.

[fantnn]

I went for a few years and completely agree with this, you'll learn as slow as the rest of the class, with arbitrary restrictions all over the place; it's an increasingly less effective relic of the industrial age, don't waste your time.

[future_grad]

How do you assume someone will "learn as slow as the rest of the class"? I am currently in college and while the pace is that of the slowest person it does not mean that you cannot learn more than them. Actually, I like going slower. It gives me more time to focus on my skill development and at the same time I can help my peers with their issues (which is great if I already overcame the same issue!). College has taught me to become more patient, to find love of others through knowledge, and to work hard.

Maybe it was a waste of time to you, but I hardly think that giving someone advice to skip college because YOU think its a waste of time is a bad decision. Are you sure you didn't miss a few things while you were there? Might want to reconsider.

[simantel]

To add to your point about going slower: You can also attend your professors' office hours and dig deeper into the subjects your classmates are forcing you to learn so slowly. Depending on the course, they'll often have additional reading you can do on any given subject being covered. As a bonus, your professors will love you.

[future_grad]

Great point. As someone who was more of an introvert until recently, my relationships with professors and students helped propel me outside of my social fears. Both of those relationships are outstanding for future opportunities to any student that works for them.

[mathattack]

Go to school. UT has a good enough program that you'll be able to learn something from someone there, and it'll be a fun four years. You don't want to look back at 50 and say, "Man I wish I had 4 years of academic freedom and good times"

Yes, you can get a job without it. Yes, you are qualified even now, though making more code visible will help.

Once you go the no-college route, you're pretty much locked in to word of mouth job searches from here on out. If you're good enough, it won't matter.

The single best programmer I ever met dropped out of college to program full time. He was already programming 12 hours a day for love, it just didn't happen to coincide with his assignments. He will never need to job search - word of mouth will carry him until he dies. If that's really you, consider going straight into the working world. If not, consider school.

[advicethrowaway]

Both of my parents are professors so I've had a lot of pressure to choose to go to college but I really appreciate everyone's input on this. I think the best decision is to go to college while simultaneously building side projects, contributing to open source, doing freelance/remote work, etc.

I have a follow-up question, however:

With my qualifications, how likely is it that I could land an internship in San Francisco this coming summer?

I'm currently learning many new (to me) technologies, ramping up my open source activity, and writing a blog. Is there anything else I should to do increase my chances?

[anishkothari]

Build a professional network. Go to tech events at UT and career fairs. Get to know professors, alumni and your peers.

[seiji]

I'm not convinced a Computer Science degree would be fully utilized in a career in web and android development.

Right now, you can build what you know. School will show you how to build things you don't know.

[tuhins]

If you are intelligent, have opinions and can justify your opinions, most people will take you seriously. Whether its a mistake or not depends on you. Are you completely set on working in tech? College for most is a time for exploration and you will miss out on this. Also, not having a degree precludes you from many careers outside of tech (investment banking, consulting, professional careers in law, medicine, etc). That being said, if required, you can always go back to school later.

[wahjah]

You should go to schoool. It may sound dumb, but it's a hiring filter at lots of established companies and you'll be defending not having a degree for the rest of your career if you don't.

It doesn't take that much effort to skate through on B-C's, and you can keep doing professional dev on the side.

[advicethrowaway]

>it's a hiring filter at lots of established companies and you'll be defending not having a degree for the rest of your career if you don

I agree, it's essentially putting a handicap on myself for the rest of my life.

Do you think four years of full time experience and networking wouldn't outweigh a degree?

[beat]

"Need".. Consider "must" versus "should". Must? No. Should? Probably.

For extra credit, consider "can't" versus "won't", and cases in which "can't" is used to mean "won't".

[argonaut]

There was a similar thread on this topic here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6142978.

Let me add my thoughts:

1. In this current climate, your lack of a college degree will not affect your hiring chances. Blue chip tech companies like Apple, Microsoft, Amazon, Google, and Facebook care slightly more, but even then, four years of quality work experience will actually, in my opinion, put you ahead. I get the feeling that when people on this thread talk about HR, they are talking about the job recruiting processes at other non Goog/Apple/Msft/Amz/Fb firms that are not as software-focused. Those firms in my experience are a lot more meritocratic. I didn't have a college education when my resume got through Apple's recruiter filter, and when I got an in-person interview with Amazon.

2. However, the current job climate in SV is quite unique. The job market is so hot that, as you can see in the linked thread, people with 1 year of experience can get 120k job offers as web/mobile developers (take into account that SV is very expensive to live in). The central question is: what is the job market going to look like in the future? If the market crashes in the next 2 years, not only will you have a hard time finding a job, but so will even those with CS degrees (by no means am I saying that those with CS degrees will be ahead in that case).

3. I think there is a good chance of you getting a summer internship in the coming summer. Do you have any family in the Bay Area that you could stay with? Make sure it is a paid internship - unpaid internships are generally correlated with low quality.

4. There are other non-tangible reasons to go to school: the social experience, meeting girls (or guys), etc. If you're a 18/19 year-old guy it can be quite hard to date in SV working at a startup, esp. since everyone your age is in school. It's for this reason that I chose to go to school.

5. Consider a compromise (see linked thread): Get a great internship over the summer, preferably with a well-known startup or tech company. Do well and ask for a full-time offer, which will allow you to bypass the normal interview process. Defer admission to UT Austin for 1 year (a so-called gap year, you'll have to look into their admissions policies more closely or contact the admissions office to see if that is allowed - also see what kind of deadline you have for declaring that you're deferring). Work for a year, and at the end of the year, evaluate this again.

[advicethrowaway]

Thanks for the link.

1. That's good to hear.

2. I am a bit worried about that, which is why I want to take advantage of the opportunity now rather than four years from now when it might not be available.

3. I do have family to stay with there.

4. That's definitely true but I personally value money/opportunity/career to dating.

5. My plan right now is to do exactly that. I am a bit worried about how a gap year will affect my scholarship opportunities though.

[argonaut]

Some scholarships will let you defer, others will let you apply the next year - talk to them about that.

[dreamdu5t]

You have 30-50+ years of being forced to work. Go to college while someone is willing to send you.

Internships at web startups are a fool's game. You can be freelancing while going to school, making money, and gaining valuable experience.

[advicethrowaway]

These probably don't factor in but here are some more details about my background/credentials:

SAT is 2040 (not superscored)

Top 7% of my class

#8 in the nation in web design for BPA.

[marshray]

You have too much talent to spend on being a top web/Android app developer. The world needs you to do bigger and better things.

It doesn't matter how you do it, just surround yourself with people smarter than you are.

[thejteam]

With those scores I doubt you will have much trouble in school. And if you are in-state for UT-Austin I doubt it is too expensive.

You may just want to do android and web dev now, but nobody knows what will be important 10 years from now. The skills you pick up in college, as well as the credentials, may prove to be useful.

[advicethrowaway]

>if you are in-state for UT-Austin I doubt it is too expensive.

I am in-state and I have some money in savings so I could probably manage it well.

>nobody knows what will be important 10 years from now

That's one of my fears about going to college. Perhaps it's irrational but I have this feeling that I'll miss out on prime opportunities which might not be available after I graduate.

>The skills you pick up in college, as well as the credentials, may prove to be useful.

I definitely agree with you on that. If I ever want to get into more rigorous software development like machine learning, searching, etc. college would be very valuable.

[tdheff]

Something that no one has mentioned here, you will have a HUGE amount of free time at college. Far, far more than you will have if you go get a job.

If you are more interested in starting/continuing to run your own projects than working on someone else's, then I would- without a doubt- go to school.

[jason_slack]

Don't view it as you might be missing out. Lots of very successful companies started as college projects.

College might be good also in the respect that you might have at your disposal lots of test equipment, a test audience.

You can still add to your GitHUB from college too. :-)

[ibudiallo]

I faced a similar situation not long ago and wrote about it. I hope you can get something out of it :

http://idiallo.com/blog/2013/04/do-you-really-need-a-college...

[zbruhnke]

Not in SF (LA) but happy to chat about a job internship etc at our startup. If you're interested email is in my profile