[mpyne]

> The Indian Wars were a real thing, after all, and ended long after the abolition of slavery.

Absolutely, but none of us can go back in time and undo the bad things that America has done, or that Britain has done, or that Germany has done, or that Russia has done, or what anyone has done.

But people do not apply the same standard to, say, Germany or Russia, that they apply to the USA.

You can bring up slavery every day, and America will have been wrong every time. Does that, itself, taint the blood of 2013 Americans?

Certainly American can and should make corrections and pay penance how they can, and at least partially they do (e.g. affirmative action programs, equal opportunity laws), just as Germany atones for the actions of the Nazis, and just as Japan still maintains only a "self-defense force" in consequence of wars from decades ago.

Certainly we can compare America of today with other countries of today. America won't always win that comparison (e.g. Germany has much better laws regarding data privacy and data protection) but nor will America be the worst nation on the Earth. Certainly they look OK as compared to Russia.

But if one's argument against the USA will inevitably come back to what a bunch of assholes were doing back in 1790-1920 then it's not unfair to also widen the scope of comparison for those nations that are being compared against the USA.

[dragonwriter]

Hey, you're the one that made argument that other countries are worse thanthe US because they kept doing bad things after the US abolished slavery.

Now you are moving the goalposts once it is pointed out that that applies to the US, too.

[mpyne]

My argument was not that other countries are worse than the U.S. because of things done after slavery.

My argument is mainly that if we're going to go back through the totality of the mists of time, that the U.S.'s hands are not exactly the ones with the most blood dripping off of them.

[fnordfnordfnord]

>Absolutely, but none of us can go back in time and undo the bad things that America has done

We could work a little bit harder at not continuing to cheat Native Americans as soon as tomorrow. http://www.buffalopost.net/?tag=minerals-management-service

>But if one's argument against the USA will inevitably come back to what a bunch

That's not the argument. The argument is that governance is an imperfect tool, will always be imperfect, and that none of our governments are beyond reproach.

[mpyne]

> That's not the argument. The argument is that governance is an imperfect tool, will always be imperfect, and that none of our governments are beyond reproach.

Hey, finally something we both fully agree on! I just wish you'd have phrased it as such earlier. :)