[slc]

Mixing in the non-citizens in a discussion about demographics seems wrong. Most of the non-citizens are people around retirement age - factory workers who were sent in the country from other soviet countries, military families and so on. The cause for reduction in numbers of non-citizens is simple - they died.

Also claiming that they have an incentive to leave the country seems wrong, because the requirements to acquire citizenship are so easy. You just have to prove that you understand the Latvian language at a very basic level. If you can do that, then you get citizenship. Much easier than moving to a different country.

[glesica]

> Also claiming that they have an incentive to leave the country seems wrong

I don't know about that, ever been to Narva? Ethnic Russians are, at least to some extent, in a position similar to that of African Americans in the US, but it is easier for them to leave since they just arrived a few decades ago, whereas African Americans have been in the US long enough to have established long-term connections and to have lost contact with the "old world". So it seems pretty reasonable to me to say that Ethnic Russians have an incentive to leave the Baltic states.

[slc]

No, I haven't. I live in Latvia. I'm sure that the older generation of Estonians don't like the russians, because they blame them for the ~50 years of life under a communist dicatorship, the relatives lost in the siberian death camps and so on. But comparing this dislike to the history of slavery and segregation, linchings and so on of african americans seems stupid and the qualification of "to some extent" doesn't remedy that. Again, can't really speak about Estonia, if you would claim that the russian speaking people can't sit in the front of the bus, I wouldn't be able to refute it other than to express my sincere disbelief.

[mb_72]

You could make that comparison if African Americans had been invaders of the US, but not otherwise.

Narva is a huge problem for the Estonian government - unemployment there is high, and the educational institutions struggle to field teachers who can teach in Estonian. As a result, young people with a Russian background are at a disadvantage with respect to basic language skills.

It's also fair to say there are a number of those in Narva who wish for their 'countrymen' to come rolling over the border again.

[glesica]

Why does it matter how a discriminated-against minority group got to a place? Russian Balts are treated poorly. African Americans are treated poorly. Both groups suffer from lack of opportunities, institutional discrimination at various points, and a cycle of poverty caused largely by bigotry. How they got there is really immaterial.

[slc]

You forgot to compare the treatment of the russian speaking people in the baltic states to the treatment of jews in the nazi germany. Both were treated poorly.

[chokosabe]

This is daft, stupid and racist. African Americans are Americans. Period.

[glesica]

They sure are Americans, but try telling that to a good portion of the US population and you'll get some push back, unfortunately... Racism is alive and well in America, just like anti-Russian sentiments are alive and well in the Baltics. The Russian minority in the Baltics suffers from many of the same problems modern African Americans do: discrimination, systemic poverty, lack of opportunity, etc.

[jvrossb]

That doesn't sound right - if I speak fluent Russian and I'm older than 15, it's probably easier for me to move to a Russian-speaking country (where I might have family) than learn Latvian. Especially if my social circle in Latvia is exclusively Russian speaking.

[slc]

If you're 15, then you have already received free government funded latvian language courses for 9 years in school. It's part of the curriculum. You'd have to be especially lazy to not be able to pass the citizenship exams.

[sologoub]

What if the parents chose to send the kid to Russian-language school?

In any case, you have a point that if someone WANTED to integrate into Latvian society, they could. What I'm questioning is the desire.

Having immigrated to US and adapted to that society, I'd have to say that moving "back" to the country where you already speak the language and identify with the society is quite a bit easier than to fully integrate into something you are not used to. It's all in the will of a person and the economic incentives to do so. For me in the US, I had the resolve and very strong financial against to be had if I followed through.

If you take Switzerland as an example, their extremely high citizenship requirements are well supported by the high standard of living and long term benefits. Unfortunately, Latvia, together with the rest of the Baltic states does not yet have such a strong position. I suspect when it does, such complaints will end, as people will be happy to do the work for the reward.