[philsnow]

> Setting up a password for an Android device only needs to be done once for each device->network pairing.

So you want _yet another_ password between the user and his magical experience or whatever ?

I see myself as a "privacy enthusiast", and even I recognize that wanting to encrypt wifi passwords in this way would only appeal to ~0.01% of android users.

You could argue that google could make this an option hidden under the three dots / context menu / whatever that thing is called, but there's probably much lower-hanging fruit than this.

[w0utert]

>> So you want _yet another_ password between the user and his magical experience or whatever ?

I find this a pretty weak objection. Do you really want to trade all your stored passwords for the convenience of not having to enter 1 additional password ('my Android backup password') once every one or two years when you activate a new or additional device?? I wonder how this objection rhymes with having logins on 20+ different websites?

While I don't believe that Google wants to harvest your WiFi passwords (but also don't rule it out), I also don't think it's all that paranoid to assume that Google deliberately chose to not encrypt backups by default, so they can extract useful information from Android device backups. Or do you still believe Android is 'free' because Google is a charity?

[philsnow]

You missed the central part of my argument, so I'll reiterate it here: users don't care about this stuff, and passwords are user-hostile. Google chose to implement this a certain way that works for 99.99% of people.

Now, in the 0.01% case, your counter argument still doesn't hold, in my opinion:

> Do you really want to trade all your stored passwords for the convenience of not having to enter 1 additional password ('my Android backup password')

Yes.

Even strong wifi passwords can be brute-forced within minutes from the curb by anybody with an unmarked van and a measly few GPUs. At this point in the technology race, wifi passwords are really just keeping the honest people out. If you want something stronger, you're going to have to go to machine certificates on each laptop / mobile device.

> once every one or two years when you activate a new or additional device??

Even worse, passwords that aren't used often exit my fingers' memory and are thus lost to time (unless I write them down and store them in my safe deposit box or keepassdroid or whatever, but "hardly anybody" does this, so Google would get phone calls from users every year or two saying "can you give me the password that I'm supposed to be using to keep from giving you my passwords? kthx").

[jordanthoms]

Can you give a source for that - I thought WPA2 AES was still quite secure, assuming you use a long random password?

[philsnow]

Ah, you're quite right, thanks for making me look this up.

I found some Toms Hardware article that goes into "a few GPUs in a desktop" all the way through "renting 20 machines with GPUs from EC2 for a while for <$20 USD", and it seems like a password that is long (>=12 characters for now), doesn't have dictionary words, and uses more than just [a-zA-Z0-9] will be safe from undedicated adversaries for a number of years (probably the life of whatever router you're using).

[archivator]

You could in theory salt the primary account password with a new salt, derive a key from it and use that to encrypt the password list (sending the salt alongside it). This of course implies that the plaintext password never hits Google's servers, which it probably does.

In general, I'm not sure this is a valid threat model. If you're not trusting Bob with your Wi-Fi passwords, why are you trusting him with everything else? If anyone compromises Google, there's far more valuable data on your account than the Wi-Fi list. Even if that's all they gain access to, it's pretty hard to exploit remotely. If someone is targeting you at this scale, you have bigger problems to worry about.

[HNaTTY]

Well I don't agree that there's far more valuable data than the ability to access my internal network. If my wifi network wasn't segregated from my wired network, by getting my wifi password you have bypassed my firewall, giving you access to my/my company's servers.

[archivator]

If someone has the resources to obtain your Wi-Fi password from Google and is determined enough to get within range of your network, you're being targeted by a very dedicated adversary. Things like physical security, TEMPEST and listening devices become valid concerns. This is a highly unlikely adversary for the majority of internet users.

Note that non-targeted attacks (the type that leak password lists) are not a serious threat here.

[kbenson]

That's not necessarily true. I imagine the data would most likely be targeted by a third party that's disinterested in you, but very interested in your adversary's money. I wonder what the going rate rate for all the WiFi passwords on my block would be. Or neighborhood. Or zip code.