[Nursie]

>> I think that as a French citizen I pay too much tax and I'm glad Google and Amazon are able to get away with it.

Even though their activities directly increase your own tax bill. You have an odd way of thinking.

>> taxing Google and Amazon more wouldn't change anything for local companies.

Of course it would, their tax avoidance games mean nobody else can compete.

You can argue that lower tax for everyone is a good thing, but I really don't see how you can argue for the perpetuation of special exemptions for those that can afford it.

[patrickaljord]

> Even though their activities directly increase your own tax bill. You have an odd way of thinking.

The French State creates € 12 billions in debt each month [1]. If you think them paying any more taxes would decrease my tax bill in any way, then you have an odd way of doing math.

1: http://www.planetoscope.com/comptes-publics/315-compteur-de-...

> Of course it would, their tax avoidance games mean nobody else can compete.

Are you seriously saying that the reason Google has no competition in France is because they pay less taxes? Even Microsoft, the multi-billion dollar company failed to do so with Bing but if only Google paid its full taxes then French companies would be able to take over is what you're saying? I very much doubt that.

> I really don't see how you can argue for the perpetuation of special exemptions for those that can afford it

As long as there is no low flat-tax but unfair and complicated tax system. People will always try to avoid it. Get rid of your insane tax system and you'll get rid of these special exemptions. Just like getting rid of alcohol prohibition got rid of the bootlegging problems.

[Nursie]

>> If you think them paying any more taxes would decrease my tax bill in any way, then you have an odd way of doing math.

Them paying more would either relieve the burden on other parts of society, slow down the debt accumulation (even just a little bit), or allow the government to spend more on public services. All of these three have an impact on your life. If you think it would have no effect at all then you have an odd way of doing math.

>> Are you seriously saying that the reason Google has no competition in France is because they pay less taxes?

Maybe, who knows? But what we have at the moment is market distortion and monetary advantages for multinationals that can play these games. Certainly the likes of Starbucks (who pay little to no UK tax) have a direct financial advantage against smaller operators and local chains.

>> As long as there is no low flat-tax but unfair and complicated tax system.

This is a pipe dream, and any flat tax I've ever seen proposed is highly regressive, loading the burden onto the middle classes (and away from the very wealthy). What I find most amusing about it is how the very wealthy have so many cheerleaders who are in effect arguing for higher taxes for themselves.

>> People will always try to avoid it.

Yes, but you seem to be supporting your own country getting screwed by large corporations and transferring that burden to yourself, French companies and French citizens.

>> Get rid of your insane tax system and you'll get rid of these special exemptions. Just like getting rid of alcohol prohibition got rid of the bootlegging problems.

It's not quite that simple unfortunately.

[patrickaljord]

>> Them paying more would either relieve the burden on other parts of society, slow down the debt accumulation (even just a little bit), or allow the government to spend more on public services.

But this is exactly what I'm saying, the more taxes we pay, the more the government spends and create debt. The only way out of this vicious circle is _less_ spending, not more tax. We've been doing more taxes for 60 years and we have more debts than ever.

> Are you seriously saying that the reason Google has no competition in France is because they pay less taxes?

>> Maybe, who knows?

Ok, you're just not being honest right now just to win the argument. Or you're delusional.

>> This is a pipe dream, and any flat tax I've ever seen proposed is highly regressive, loading the burden onto the middle classes

I don't know in what world you live in, but here in France, the burden is already on the middle class. The rich are all domiciled outside of France where they pay much less (around 10 to 15%). A low flat tax around 10 to 15% would bring them back as they would have no interest in going abroad. Many countries have a flat tax http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_tax#Countries_that_have_fl...

>> Yes, but you seem to be supporting your own country getting screwed by large corporations and transferring that burden to yourself, French companies and French citizens.

No, I think you are. By setting too high taxes, you make the rich run away and pay their taxes elsewhere, leaving the burden on the middle class who's dying.

>> It's not quite that simple unfortunately.

It is actually. Just not in the interest of the current governments (both left and right are socialist in France).

[Nursie]

>> But this is exactly what I'm saying, the more taxes we pay, the more the government spends and create debt.

I'm not sure there's a causal relationship there.

>>The only way out of this vicious circle is _less_ spending, not more tax. We've been doing more taxes for 60 years and we have more debts than ever.

Lower taxes all round is a fine idea. Letting some multinationals off from their tax bill is not a step in the right direction to achieving it.

>> Ok, you're just not being honest right now just to win the argument. Or you're delusional.

I'm being totally honest, the effective tax breaks given to multinationals via their various international financial games are a market distortion that disadvantages smaller players and breaks competition.

>> I don't know in what world you live in, but here in France, the burden is already on the middle class. The rich are all domiciled outside of France where they pay much less (around 10 to 15%). A low flat tax around 10 to 15% would bring them back as they would have no interest in going abroad. Many countries have a flat tax

That list isn't a particularly prestigious club...

Many would say that they should stay abroad if they're not willing to pay to be part of the society we're creating in the west.

As a counterpoint, most people seem to agree that some small percentage of earners pay over half of income tax in most western countries anyway (the threat of rich flight is always used as an excuse not to raise taxes further). Any flat tax that brought in the same amount of money as the present system would relieve this burden from them. Any flat tax that didn't bring in the same amount of money is pointless to argue about because we could reduce the overall tax take in any of a huge number of ways.

Whether the absent rich would return in sufficient numbers to make any impact at all is really a matter of speculation.