[cuttooth]

I'm of the apparent internet minority (read: most Americans still don't know or care about PRISM/who this guy is) who doesn't care if the government looks at my porn history. None of this stuff matters at all and the fact that anyone was surprised by PRISM's existence is nothing but foolish, in my opinion.

With greater technology comes inevitable supervision over such things, and it isn't in the name of reading about your browsing habits unless you enjoy children being abused or bombing buildings. The only shame is the lack of transparency about the surveillance, but again, this whole thing should have been completely obvious to just about anyone. Snowden is a traitor and a coward for leaking the obvious (while running off to hide instead of facing the demons he accuses so arrogantly) and Assange is a horrible person for a bunch of other reasons.

[lhnz]

> I'm of the apparent internet minority (read: most Americans still don't know or care about PRISM/who this guy is) who doesn't care if the government looks at my porn history.

1. PRISM is an apparatus just waiting for another government to use it against the US. Who's to say that Russia, China, etc. haven't been using it to spy on Americans, too? I mean, it's clearly not that hard to get access. Yes - they might not look at your porn history, but perhaps they will use some useful political information against one of your leaders and fuck you up.

2. What would happen if the government was to have a good reason to misuse the information they were gathering. What would happen if a fascist party was to come into power?

3. Calling Assange a horrible person is small-minded. Don't make this about personalities; this is about individual freedom, the right to a transparent government, the constitution your country was founded upon, and human rights.

4. Rather a traitor to the government than a traitor to the principles that made the US what it once was. Unless you want mediocrity...

[bandushrew]

The simple fact that they are viewing ('metadata' about) my browsing/email/phone calls/IRC/Facebook/Twitter/whatever isn't actually the thing I care about.

Its the fact that if I happen to spend private time doing/thinking/talking about anything someone in the government finds objectionable with anybody someone in the government finds objectionable, I will get flagged and investigated.

Seriously, I couldn't care less if facebook employees read my posts, they have no power to hurt my life. Gmail employees laughing over my email? go for it. Mozilla employees discovering my personal fetish for modget donkey porn? meh.

But the government? I am now dependent on nobody in the governmental apparatus finding my private opinions and speech objectionable or questionable, now or ever in the future.

Fuck that. Either they stop doing that, or I stop expressing my private opinions to other people.

Society loses if the second one occurs on a massive scale. we have entered a really bad place.

[embolism]

All true except that you are greatly underestimating the risk of private companies collecting data that ends up affecting your life.

Start by thinking of FICO scores or credit histories. Similar concepts can be applied to eligibility for all kinds of 'privately' provided parts of society - job screenings, auto insurance.

Imagine vacation rentals where the owner can screen people out based on political affiliation... the are any number of ways in which private institutions can quietly 'hurt your life' using all this personal data.

[bandushrew]

Yep, absolutely.

I was somewhat understating concerns about private companies there to avoid diluting the conversation too much, but I totally agree.

Hell, anyone could put their hands up to blackmail me over my midget donkey fetish, it doesn't have to be the government - but it does reach a particularly nasty level when it is government policy.

[embolism]

A midget donkey fetish is nothing to be ashamed of.

[zanny]

Seriously this. And if people don't think prism has already been used to stalk people with dissident viewpoints in America they might have missed a few years of news about targeting 3rd parties, the tea party, the occupy movement, etc.

[sneak]

Ubiquitous surveillance can be used to control and coerce anyone, regardless of absence of criminal wrongdoing (though there are people who claim the average american commits three felonies a day now, because the USC is so overbroad).

It's not about "nothing to hide": when anyone can be blackmailed, including judges and lawmakers and law enforcement, the entire system of interlocking checks and balances breaks down.

http://pastebin.com/7SRmFpFH

The FBI threatened MLK Jr with exposing his extramarital affair (they'd discovered via surveillance) if he didn't give up his civil rights work.

You may not have anything to hide, but many do, for entirely legal reasons, and it is shameful of you to deny them their right to privacy.

If you truly have absolutely nothing to hide, it is quite unlikely you are doing very significant work to meaningfully improve the world.

[205guy]

Worse than threatening to expose MLK's private life, they wrote to him as if someone from his religious community found out about it and shamed him and suggested he kill himself.[1] So not just blackmail, but psyops.

As I wrote in another comment, it's not just surveillance for state purposes, it's also surveillance for the corporate interests of the state (pharmaceuticals, agribusiness/GMOs, oil lobby, etc.). What if the big 3 auto makers were so powerful that they tried to crush Tesla by subtly targeting its customers and employees with fake bad news (oh wait, maybe they're already doing it). I'm convinced that some of the spying on the EU was over agricultural policies such as their strong anti-GMO stance--US companies would love to have advance knowledge to maneuver around them. I'm not sure it's happening yet, then again, how would we know?

[1] http://www.lettersofnote.com/2012/01/king-like-all-frauds-yo...

[sneak]

I wrote this the other day, explaining how Obama confirming ubiquitous surveillance in the US (even if it only targets foreigners (which turned out to be a lie anyway)) is a bullet in the head of the US internet industry:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5962529

[marshray]

You seem to think your porn history is the most interesting thing anyone will ever know about you.

I think that's kind of sad.

[xentronium]

> Snowden is a traitor <...> for leaking the obvious

This is doublethink. It's either obvious, or he's traitor for leaking it. It can't be both.

[rdtsc]

> None of this stuff matters at all and the fact that anyone was surprised by PRISM's existence is nothing but foolish, in my opinion.

I think that is a mistaken position to be in. It assumes a couple of things -- that people who disagree with the program do so because they are doing hidden illegal things and now those would come to light.

Another assumption is that the government makes no mistakes, is not malicious, can be trusted with such information, and now or in the future it will not misuse it.

This is all coming from the same entity that tortured people while talking about human right and freedom. I am not sure trusting it to "not do the wrong thing" this your history is a rational choice.

At this point trusting it with all this information is no better than trusting a toddler with a box of matches and a can of gasoline.

[seren]

You are missing the big picture. The issue is not with your own personal history, but with the power to have access to key people private life.

Let's imagine the presidential election, in the next 10 or 20 years, if the incumbent misuses the tools to find out that his/her pro-life opponent had an abortion (or in its close family), it could change the turn of the election.

You can apply the same kind of reasoning to any whistle-blower reporting corruption, pollution, or a toxic drug. It will become much easier to silence and blackmail them.

Democracy is funded in part on the equilibrium of powers, a dragnet collecting everyone's life, is breaking this fragile thing.

[adammil]

If you're comfortable sharing your browsing history with the government, feel free to email it to them at the frequency you prefer. However, I demand that they get a warrant from a non-secret court, so proper checks and balances can work, and their actions can be later scrutinized by the public and abuses can be tracked and punished if necessary.

[enraged_camel]

It's not your porn history the government is interested in - that is, unless you run for public office one day, in which case they may suddenly become very interested in it.

Rather, what you should have an issue with is them having information about you that is deeply personal and private in nature. Have you or a significant other ever had to get an abortion? Have you ever had trouble maintaining an erection? Are you one of the 30% of women who cannot achieve an orgasm? Do you have any mental disorders, sexually-transmitted diseases, or genetic conditions? How large is your penis? Have you ever been attracted to someone of the same sex? Have you ever fantasized about child porn, fat porn, necrophilia, etc.? Have you ever attempted suicide?

Most importantly: do you believe that the government knowing all of this about you - and everyone else - makes you safer?

[darkarmani]

> Snowden is a traitor and a coward for leaking the obvious

So he would have been much braver by never leading anything? That's a strange definition of coward. Besides the fact that if it was "obvious" like you say, then how is it a leak?

[hyperbovine]

Let's hope for your sake that the government does not ever decide to criminalize the viewing of porn.

[smsm42]

You would when you'd have any conflict with any branch of the government for any reason. It'd be too late by then.

Given that the Congress creates over 50 new federal crimes each year, and where you live, your local government probably also doesn't sit on its hands, are you completely sure you'd never want the government not to know absolutely everything about you? Really sure?

>>> Snowden is a traitor and a coward

I'd give you a traitor - he certainly violated the conditions of his employment and clearance, even if for an arguably good reason, but coward? I'd think it takes guts to take on the US government alone, knowing he'd probably spend rest of his life either hiding or in jail, or maybe eventually both. Would you dare to do the same? If you knew something is wrong and you know it - would you dare to do this, knowing your life will never be the same? It definitely not a behavior of a coward.

>>> while running off to hide instead of facing the demons he accuses so arrogantly

Getting away from an overwhelming force that has every reason to crush you and every possibility is not cowardice, it is a natural act of every human who values his life and liberty.

[cuttooth]

I'm not really understanding what you're attempting to imply.