[alexjeffrey]

you may be confusing feminism with the equal rights for women movement. While there's a large crossover and the former certainly tries to pretend to be the latter, there's also an element of male-targeted sexism within the feminist community that would always prevent me from identifying with them. I'm not saying at all that feminism = sexism, but I wouldn't want to back a community that doesn't seem to address these issues.

[shanelja]

I couldn't agree more.

We should all be egalitarian: characterized by belief in equal political, economic, social, and civil rights for all people, rather than feminist: defending equal political, economic, and social rights for women.

[PavlovsCat]

The point is they so vastly don't have it, and it's so deeply ingrained, and Stockholm Syndrome runs so deep, that solidarity and kicking continued ass is really called for here.

There is a reason John Lennon wrote a song called "woman is the nigger of the world". I haven't met a sane smart man who felt threatened by feminism. Not one. Scoffing at the excesses, sure. But not calling it out like some warning sign.

Do you accuse a group working for the ethical treatment of prisoners of not wanting everyone to be treated ethically? No.

You see, that's how much I pay attention.

[derpanerb]

No sane man is threatened by feminism?

So when feminists pass bills that implement mandatory arrest policies for the male in any domestic violence calls.... a man would have to be insane to be threatened by that?

Or when a feminist twists the definition of rape so that over 1 million male victims of rape are ignored every single year (which then allows them to come to some nice fancy conclusiosn like "95% of all rape victims are female")... I'm insane for being threatened by that too?

And then we have NoW, the biggest feminist organization in the entire world... I must clearly be insane to be opposed to the fact that they constantly rally against any group or bill that tried to remove the bias from custody trials (in which mothers get custody 90+% of the time).

And this is only scratching the surface...

I suggest you stop being so ignorant of the many legitimate reasons why people have a problem with feminism.

[johngalt]

"I haven't met a sane smart man who felt threatened by feminism."

Talk to any male who has dealt with a female stalker. All the legal 'protections' put in place and advocated by feminist organizations don't apply to men. If anything they will be the tools used to further abuse.

Sure no one is threatened by the dictionary definition. It's the polices advocated by feminist organizations.

[PavlovsCat]

you may be confusing feminism with the equal rights for women movement

That's because that's the definition. Wikipedia: "Feminism is a collection of movements and ideologies aimed at defining, establishing, and defending equal political, economic, and social rights for women"

While there's a large crossover and the former certainly tries to pretend to be the latter, there's also an element of male-targeted sexism within the feminist community that would always prevent me from identifying with them.

Why let the jerks take over the term? Call it female chauvinism, done. Anyone who is still confused is trying hard to be, IMHO.

People talk a lot, but my intuitive guess is that their lack of empathy and/or awareness of the world around them prevents them from "identifying with feminism" despite the bad apples. Don't take that too personally, but that explains my allergic reaction to sloppyness around this subject.

I support so many things that are also abused, and so do you. Source: we're having this conversation on the internet :P

[alexjeffrey]

I could totally get on board with what you're saying if it weren't for the fact that some of the most prominent figures of modern feminism were massive sexists. I've attached some quotes below from some prominent radical feminists, and these women certainly aren't on the fringe of feminist thought.

Andrea Dworkin: "I want to see a man beaten to a bloody pulp with a high-heel shoved in his mouth, like an apple in the mouth of a pig." "Marriage as an institution developed from rape as a practice."

Robin Morgan: "I feel that ‘man-hating’ is an honourable and viable political act, that the oppressed have a right to class-hatred against the class that is oppressing them."

Marilyn French: "All men are rapists and that’s all they are"

Catherine McKinnon: "In a patriarchal society, all heterosexual intercourse is rape because women, as a group, are not strong enough to give meaningful consent."

[edit/note] I can't post a full rebuttal of what you've written right now as I'm at work, but if you're still on this once I've gone home I'll be happy to debate this point with you.

[PavlovsCat]

You just repeated in more detail something I already addressed as far as I can tell? I acknowledge the bad apples, I consider them a red herring in this context. But sure, feel free to elaborate.

[alexjeffrey]

well no, I was emphasising that these aren't just "some jerks" in the feminist community; these are quotes from central figures who have affected feminist doctrine in a direct way.

[PavlovsCat]

What is "feminist doctrine"? Feminism is women not taking shit anymore, and men supporting them in that. That's as good a plan as any you could mention, it applies to a whole range of people including many who never heard the word "feminism", so excuse me for thinking those "central figures" mostly affect feminism in the way they gave ammo to its opponents.

If you disagree, show me how this applies here. Show me how the fact that the blogger "is a feminist" matters at all. She provides full source material, she doesn't diss men in general -- so what, exactly, is it? Guilty by association, the association not being that she actually mingles with the kind of bigots you mentioned, but that she gets associated with them?

I would feel guilty for contributing to this red herring if I didn't also think it's good to talk about just how much we resemble birds on an oily beach thinking we're wearing tuxedos.

[alexjeffrey]

Ok here we go.

Feminism as taken from an encyclopedia is basically equated with the equal rights movement for women. I am in 100% support of this side of feminism and the idea that all people regardless of gender, race, sexual orientation and so many other dimensions should live as equals.

The feminism I am against is that which seems to have strongly influenced gender politics in recent years in such areas as domestic violence convictions, accusations of rape, how divorces are perceived and handled and so many other important issues. This is the feminism that says men are inherently sexist and that the whole system of life and governance (the "patriarchy") is designed for the systematic rape, enslavement and degradation of women.

However, this isn't the point you've raised in this most recent comment so I'll try to address that instead. You say that the fact that the blogger is a feminist doesn't matter, and you're completely correct. However, seeing some self-professed "dirty old man" make a comment about how Marissa Mayer looks attractive and jumping straight onto "he's being sexist!" is a classic feminist move and is what's being criticised here. Sure, the comment was inappropriate in a professional environment, but it's not like the guy was saying "how do you expect us to take you seriously, you're a woman". The fact of the matter is men are physiologically built to recognise and look for beauty in women, and there's nothing sexist about that. Mislabelling everything as being sexist against women is how said feminists seem to be able to hide blatant sexism against men as if it were a perfectly normal belief to hold, and I will happily attempt to neutralise any such statement if only to try to minimise some of the extreme views that can grow from it.

Anyway, I'm reading too deeply into this now so all I can do is suggest you watch some videos and read some posts by Karen Straughan aka girlwriteswhat. She very succintly covers the issues with modern (some would say radical) feminism while at the same time advocating for equal rights, and hopefully from taking in some of her points you'll be able to understand why I've reacted so strongly to your suggestion that feminism is "a no-brainer".