[enraged_camel]

There is nothing to add, as it wasn't a discussion. You put forward the assertion that the entire thing is a hoax and that Snowden is a Chinese spy. You provided absolutely zero evidence. And you expect me to "add to the discussion?" What a joke.

[Tangaroa]

I'm still waiting on Snowden to provide evidence of the NSA breaking the 4th amendment and illegally spying on the American people. For all the panic and the republication of old stories about the NSA, it is Snowden who has provided absolutely zero evidence.

What we do have is that Snowden copied a large cache of thousands of sensitive documents and gave them to who-knows-who. Suddenly countries that position themselves as enemies of the US are very happy to help him out, and he is happy to accept their assistance. In between, there was a public relations campaign to call him a "whistleblower" even though that is not what he did. The documents provided as supporting evidence do not say what Glenn Greenwald's reports say they do, while the journalists who have reported on these programs before are all facepalming at how wrong Greenwald's reporting has been.

So yes, it looks like the entire thing is a hoax and Snowden is a spy. YHBT by Glenn Greenwald and whoever else was involved. YHL. HAND.

[Zak]

The NSA secured an order from the FISC directing Verizon to turn over metadata on all calls made within the US, which includes data about the location of their customers' mobile phones. The Supreme Court has ruled that long-term tracking requires a warrant. The decision was unanimous, but split as to reasoning. The majority held that such tracking without a warrant violates the 4th amendment. It is quite likely that obtaining phone records for the purpose of tracking location has the same legal status.

[maratd]

> I'm still waiting on Snowden to provide evidence of the NSA breaking the 4th amendment and illegally spying on the American people.

Recording meta-data of phone calls and certainly the phone calls themselves, is a gross violation of the 4th amendment and the people's right "to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures".

And that is true regardless of what a pack of jackasses appointed to some court have decided and it is still true regardless of what a pack of jackasses elected to congress think. I'll even include the president, just for you.

I'll even go so far as to say that this right isn't even dependent on what a bunch of jackasses happen to think on the Internet. Crazy, I know.

My right is absolute and independent of what anyone else thinks. It is a right given to all human beings by God himself. A natural right recognized in any civilized country.

[jafaku]

Yes, it's important to remind to other people (they seem to forget) that according to the US constitution, these rights are not given to humans (not citizens) by the government, they are recognized, since they are innate.

[devcpp]

Seriously? So you're okay with the NSA spying -legally or not- on everyone, when the highest ranking people have denied this for years? Do you really think spying on Google, Yahoo!, and Microsoft users as a whole constitute probable cause for a search?

I don't care about the consequences. If the US had apologized for this terrible mess and all the lies to its own people, Snowden wouldn't have had to do any of what had followed. Instead, it still refuses to corroborate his claims, making it seems likely that there's something incriminating here.

If this doesn't seem fishy on the US side, and if you think anyone wouldn't have thought about blowing the whistle on all these lies by our leaders, you're seriously delusional. Or a troll.

[pstuart]

Do you get paid to shill for the establishment or is it just for the lulz? Maybe you get a Junior G-Man badge and a code name?

The NSA has every incentive to spy on everyone -- that's their job. The only "oversite" they have is by a toothless committees that will rubber-stamp anything they do.

Do you really trust the government to always do the right thing? Even with historical evidence of continual abuses of such power?

[LoganCale]

He leaked a classified warrant ordering Verizon to turn over data on all their customers in the U.S., which is obviously without any probable cause.

He leaked a Justice Department document signed by Eric Holder detailing all the exceptions where they can spy on U.S. citizens without a warrant.

[pyre]

I thought that the Verizon warrant came out due to some EFF actions sending FOIA requests to the FISA court regarding a specific proceeding.

[LoganCale]

No, the Verizon warrant came from Snowden. It was the first published by The Guardian in the series of documents from him. The EFF has been seeking a classified opinion by the FISC where they ruled one of the NSA's requests was unconstitutional. They have not yet been able to obtain that ruling, but the FISC has since asserted that the White House cannot order them to not release it.