[alan_cx]

What I wonder is at what point words like stasi become reasonable or acceptable.

OK, I don't like what is happening, and almost day by day thing happen that I feel are pushing the west, led by the US, more and more towards something highly controlled and not in any way free. Liberty is slowly being eroded, and I genuinely feel that is a true statement objectively. Right now, words like stasi, fascist, etc are an exaggeration, but used by people who see it going that way. They use such words to warn, but we all know those words do not really stand up objectively.

So, what is the tipping point, what has to happen for such words to actually apply? Or is it merely a case of presentation? If society, superficially, doesn't look like old Nazi Germany, is that enough for a majority to be content, even if underling that is something deeply nasty?

[grey-area]

The Stasi were the secret police for Eastern Germany, nothing to do with the Nazis as far as I know.

The surveillance undertaken by the Stasi wasn't really as extensive as (for example) collecting all phone records for the entire country, so in some ways the US has surpassed the Stasi in surveillance, while in others obviously it's nowhere near the same situation (e.g. in-person surveillance and recruiting ordinary citizens as spies), and in other areas it's similar - secret courts and sweeping warrants etc.

I suppose the point of the comparison is to shock, and then perhaps point out that there are some areas in which the current situation is worse than it was in Eastern Germany.

[rmc]

Given that communists and fascists have historically really really not liked each other, yes the secret police of communist East Germany, would not like each other.

(In East Germany, the Berlin Wall was called the "Anti-Fascist Barrier", and Nazis imprisoned and banned the communist party)

[zwieback]

For me it would be when people disappear. Being spied on is one thing but being afraid of getting arrested is another.

I grew up in Western Germany and visited the East several times. Living in the US now I have to say that it feels an order of magnitude "freer" than either of the Germanies of my youth. However, I'm very concerned about the NSA thing.

[GFischer]

The U.S. is not there yet, but it's getting close.

American citizens can be arrested on U.S. soil and sent to Guantanamo, they haven't "disappeared" but they are out of sight.

There has been at least two American citizens sent to Guantanamo:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasser_Hamdi http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jos%C3%A9_Padilla_(alleged_terr... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_detainees_at_Guantanam...

It feels like something out of the Niemoller poem:

"First they came for the muslims, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a muslim."

OT: I always feel awkward about writing "American" when referring to U.S. citizens, as we in South America also call ourselves Americans ("Americanos").

[_ak]

As they say in Germany, "Wer sich nicht bewegt, spürt seine Fesseln nicht." (who doesn't move doesn't feel his manacles)

[PavlovsCat]

My dear,

Have you noticed how those who move, move fast? And those who don’t, just stand still; motionless?

Yes, you can go ahead and rant to me about how an object in motion stays in motion, and how an object at rest stays at rest. But, I think there’s more to this than physics.

I think those in motion have seen something the others have not; their imprisonment.

While those who do not move, do not notice their chains.

Truly yours, Rosa Luxemburg

[sentenza]

What about "your children will not be allowed to attend a university" or "no matter how hard you work or how good you are, your path is blocked" or "people just do not want to do business with you any more"?

Unlike during the time of the Nazis, what most people in East Germany dreaded was not to disappear, but to have the few possibilities to achieve something taken from them.

[zwieback]

Which is what happened to my mom and aunt in post-war Eastern Germany, luckily they were able to get away. That's also what I'm concerned about here. I totally understand the allure of big data mining for the purpose of preventing attacks but once you've figured out a good algorithm to pinpoint a specific population it's just a small step to put obstacles in their path.

[adventured]

Well then we better be extra vigilant in pushing back against this sort of thing:

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/grand-jury-rejects...

Cases like that can be dangerous trial balloons.

[amirmc]

> "For me it would be when people disappear..."

You don't necessarily need to 'disappear' people when (with enough information) you can string together a bunch of charges such that a compliant judicial system will put them away for you. Even if there isn't a conviction, the process may be sufficient to destroy someone's life.

[adaml_623]

It's a good question but the story of the frog in the slowly heating pot of water comes to mind. At what temperature should the frog really get worried?

[xradionut]

It's too late for the general population in the US. But there are very smart folks with means that have hedged their bets by having estates in multiple countries.

[jes]

You might wish to read "The Ominous Parallels" by Leonard Peikoff.