[alexqgb]

The point is that America's founding ideals are very much worth dying for. "How bad it gets" is totally irrelevant in this context, since the "it" refers to specific conditions, whereas the ideal remains separate, over and above them.

The thing to understand is that "country" in this context, means the embodiment of an ideal, and not just a particular piece of territory, or a group of people inhabiting it.

If you don't feel that there are any ideals worth dying for, then all of this will be much harder to understand.

[grecy]

> The point is that America's founding ideals are very much worth dying for.

In YOUR opinion.

> "How bad it gets" is totally irrelevant in this context, since the "it" refers to specific conditions

But those specific conditions have not existed for many, many years, and your death won't bring them back.

> If you don't feel that there are any ideals worth dying for...

Why die for them when I can just go somewhere else that already has them?

It's amazing more American's don't realize they are the fundamentalists they are told to be afraid of.

[kbenson]

> In YOUR opinion.

In Snowden's opinion as well, obviously.

> Why die for them when I can just go somewhere else that already has them?

Because this totally ignores the reality that this other place didn't appear out of thin air. It has people there that care about these ideals, and most likely some that would be willing to die for them.

In some respect, not attempting to change your country to be what you consider a better place and just migrating to a different location is leeching off the world, and those that work hard to make it what they consider a better place. We all do it to a lesser or greater degree, but to just throw your hands up and give up on your current circumstances entirely in favor of a move is beneficial to no one but yourself and those you disagree with.

This is as true for neighborhoods as it is for countries.

[alexqgb]

"Because this totally ignores the reality that this other place didn't appear out of thin air. It has people there that care about these ideals, and most likely some that would be willing to die for them. In some respect, not attempting to change your country to be what you consider a better place and just migrating to a different location is leeching off the world, and those that work hard to make it what they consider a better place."

This times one million. Thank you.

[grecy]

> Because this totally ignores the reality that this other place didn't appear out of thin air. It has people there that care about these ideals, and most likely some that would be willing to die for them......In some respect, not attempting to change your country to be what you consider a better place and just migrating to a different location is leeching off the world, and those that work hard to make it what they consider a better place...... This is as true for neighborhoods as it is for countries.

I agree that we need to work hard to make a place (country/neighborhood/whatever) better. I personally protest, picket, vote, write to and call my representative, etc. etc.

If it gets to the point I need to die to make something better, it's not worth it.

[alexqgb]

"If it gets to the point I need to die to make something better, it's not worth it."

You know what? That's fine. In reality, most people feel the exact same way. But here's the other reality: without people who felt otherwise, there wouldn't be better places for you to go in the first place.

So when you encounter the kinds of people who realize that someone needs to make the ultimate sacrifice, and look to themselves, instead of looking around for others, the least you can do is to treat them with gratitude and respect instead of disparaging the very ideals that prompted the extrordinary sacrifice from which you (and millions of others) so clearly benefit.

[alexqgb]

"It's amazing more American's don't realize they are the fundamentalists they are told to be afraid of."

Sorry, but no. Fundamentalism is the belief that only the literal interpretation of a religious text is the correct and acceptable one, that only ordained religious authorities are capable of understanding these texts (others must simply obey), and that those who don't share this view are enemies who must be subjugated or killed.

This position is diametrically opposed to the notion of inalienable rights to life, liberty and the pursuit happiness in legal equality with one's fellow citizens - regardless of their religious beliefs. Indeed, there has been no greater check on fundamentalism that the legal, cultural, and intellectual tradition that America's founding ideals encapsulate.

[parasubvert]

See, this is why the OP has a point.

1. The religious text is the constitution itself, the ordained religious authorities are "Real Americans" (whatever that means). Lots of people throw out accusations of unconstitutional acts without any basis but their interpretation of the text - that's fundamentalism.

2. Case in point: the constitution made no distinction of US citizens being created equal. All persons are created equal.

3. If there is no greater check on fundamentalism than the constitution, why is the US home to the largest population of Christan fundamentalists?

[mikegioia]

> Why die for them when I can just go somewhere else that already has them?

Go where? You can't magically arrive somewhere and become a citizen of that place under their protection and rules of law. Also, what if the place that you go to has fewer liberties than the US?

I can't tell if you're being purposefully difficult or are unable to grasp the concept of dying to protect freedoms.

[Spearchucker]

People have different opinions, formed through each individual's upbringing and environment. I, for instance, cannot and will not place one person above another based on where they're from. So, your ideal isn't my ideal. I will also not die for some else's ideal, especially if that ideal is portrayed as applying to one country and not another[1]. That position got stronger when my son was born. I would die for him. And I will move to another country to protect him, if that's required, in a heartbeat and without a second thought. We're all citizens of a tiny little backwater rock in a huge universe. It would be awesome if we could treat ourselves as equal citizens of the world.

Nationalism is like, so five minutes ago. Patriotism has a place in international sporting events only.

[1] Ref. the way the US treats foreigners and other (even allied) countries.

[kbenson]

I'm in the same position. I have children, and can't imagine putting my life on the line for an ideal, because I don't believe it's my life to give.

My point was more towards the fact that my ability to make a choice on location to live to match my ideals is directly related to others who make those places a reality, and I'm acutely aware of that. I recognize other that work hard and may make the ultimate sacrifice to make the world a better place so I don't have to. That's the least I can do.

[grecy]

> You can't magically arrive somewhere and become a citizen of that place under their protection and rules of law.

Correct. So I have to work hard, and spend years on paperwork to be legally allowed to immigrate into some other country. I was born in country A, which I love. I moved to country B because I wanted to, and have spent 5 years on paperwork becoming a legal resident, and in about 2 more years I will be a citizen of country B and retain A. Also, because of my father's citizenship, I am now a citizen of country C, which happens to be an EU Member country, so I can live and work anywhere there too. At this point in my life, I think I'll eventually float back to country A, because I love it there.

I'm confident that if I worked hard, I could become a citizen of any country in the world I would want to live in (my personal list)

>What if the place that you go to has fewer liberties than the US?

Obviously, I'm not going to choose such a place.