[guelo]

It is easy for them to use info against you outside of the courts in all sorts of ways, from blacklisting to blackmail. Or if you really piss them off the government can just throw you in jail and refuse to prosecute you, like the guys in Gitmo.

[tptacek]

If you think the government is going to disappear you to Guantanamo, what's there to discuss at all? You clearly believe the government is bound by no laws at all.

[djim]

Are you ok with the information that has come to light about our government collecting masses of data about US citizens under the guise of fighting terrorism? I think what is coming to light here is that the Government does whatever the fuck it wants and justifies those actions in any way they see fit. As a United States Citizen, I am NOT ok with this.

[tptacek]

Interesting. I see a government largely doing what the people of the US voted them into office to do: allocating resources to pursuing organizations (or, really, if we're honest, entire ideologies) that "we" perceive as threats to our security; moreover, from what I can tell, they're doing it within the bounds of the law.

I feel the same way about NSA surveillance at this point, on Tuesday June 11, as I do about airport security: it's ineffective and offensive, but not the start of the decline of the Republic.

[djim]

I don't jive with your analogy on TSA screening/NSA blanket spying on all citizens. Flying is a choice, in one form or another. We volunteer to be subjected to TSA when we buy a plane ticket. We don't agree to give up our rights as a citizen when we vote people into office, even if we support that candidate's views on fighting terror.

Let's vote this gal/guy into office so we can have our rights suppressed in the name of freedom, said no one ever.

[tptacek]

I disagree with you that flying is a "choice" that turns airport security into an opt-in procedure.

[djim]

you can live your entire life and never fly. if you are a citizen of the world communicating inside the US (or internet traffic passing through the US), evidence seems to indicate that some portion of your communications are being recorded and stored under the pretense of fighting terrorism. everyone communicates. these are worlds apart as from each other.

[guelo]

Maybe that was a bit of an overstatement on my part unless you're a middle eastener. But they've proven over and over that they'll throw out the laws when it inconveniences them.

[tptacek]

What's the example that most sticks out in your head of the US throwing out its own laws?

[guelo]

Maybe warrant-less mass eavesdropping. Though admittedly they did give everybody retroactive immunity once they got found out.