[rorymarinich]

No! Of course it's not okay to hurt somebody. If I made it sound like that I fucked up big-time.

What I said was that it's the attitude above that leads to physical violence. When somebody starts wanting to punch somebody in the face, it comes from that particular level of dickery.

I am not at all a violent person. I don't fight people, I don't hit people. I don't have a personality that leads to fights. The closest I get to violence is posting angry things online. And I'm certain that writing all these responses at 7 in the morning might have dimmed my writing a bit, but I never once implied violence.

What I said, again, was this:

If we were having this argument in real life and I was a more naturally violent person, I'd probably hit you, and then in your eyes I'd become the bully and you wouldn't be guilty of anything.

That's not me threatening. In fact, the one "threat" I made was the one where I lock out my Hacker News account because debates like this are a waste where nobody learns a damn thing. The point I was making was that chairface's comment was aggravating and glossing over points in a way that was smarmy and obnoxious. (His response to the parent post clarified a lot, so props to him.) That's an attitude that's not just on Hacker News. A friend of mine had it when he'd constantly pester a violent kid just to provoke a reaction. He'd get clocked in the eye and tell us all what a savage that other kid was. The point of my stupid poorly written blog post was that this is a common attitude amongst nerds when they handle things socially. They'll do things that they know will alienate them because they think the alienation is forthcoming anyway. In doing that they give themselves some "control" over their hopeless state.

I mean, I'm certain I'm talking to somebody who knows what I'm talking about. I've seen a lot of people dismiss your blog posts because of the "ZED'S SO FUCKING AWESOME" logo or because of your many elongated, poorly written rants. I'm too lazy to search back, but I've gotten into a lot of Zed debates on this site where you get slammed because your old web site was just begging for people to call you immature. You obviously knew that would happen and you went on doing it anyway, so you fit into the category of people I'm talking about here.

You're quoting me saying a lot of shit I didn't say, Zed. Cut that out; if you're going to get pissed off at me get pissed off at me for what I believe.

I never said violence was defensible. I have friends who have been molested and harassed and hurt. I think it's one of the most terrible things there is. And this entire argument is such a loose tangent from the argument I originally made that it was stupid of me to respond in the first place. I'm aware of that. There's a difference between an abused woman and an abused nerd. Nerd abuse is largely petty in nature. I know maybe two kids in my nerd group who got into fights, ever, and neither of those was a case of random abuse: both sides wanted to pummel the other side. So when the argument sifted away from petty and towards serious, my response should have been: that's not the same thing. Abuse and rape stem from an entirely other side of human existence than things like teasing and name-calling.

Child abuse is not name-calling. If you're suggesting that calling somebody a name is child abuse, you're off your fucking rocker. If a nerd is getting hit and hurt for what he's saying and doing, there's something pathological behind that happening; when a nerd is ostracized because he acts like a jackass, he's responsible for its happening.

The point I was trying to make, half-asleep, earlier today was that people who are getting seriously abused should take action to stop the abuse. If you're getting beat up or raped then you should take action to stop it from happening, because otherwise you're letting a guilty person get away with a crime. The only blame on the other person is letting the criminal get away. They aren't responsible for the horrible things being done to them.

But now I'm just repeating myself, and to be honest I can't tell if you just flew off at me because you think I said a terrible thing or if, like your critics claim, flipping out just gets you off. If it's the former, then I've clarified myself, and I'm sorry for sounding like I meant something I absolutely do not. If it's the latter, we've got nothing left to talk about.

[patcito]

> You obviously knew that would happen and you went on doing it anyway, so you fit into the category of people I'm talking about here.

Or maybe he just doesn't care what people think on this matter.

[rorymarinich]

If he didn't care, he wouldn't have gone out of his way to make a blog theme that screamed "Obnoxious asshole" and then gone on to rant about things that got him called an obnoxious asshole. I'm not saying that those two things make him an obnoxious asshole, but then, Zed never once assumed the attitude of "I can't believe people are calling me an obnoxious asshole." I'm certain he didn't care that they were, and so in his mind it's totally okay.

If he complained about people not calling him sensitive with that logo of his, then I'd call him out for being a hypocrite. That's what I'm doing with nerds: I think that nerds go out of their way to be disliked and then complain that nobody likes them.

[zedshaw]

Alright, let's walk through your little essay on violence, which gets progressively worse as you run your mouth:

> You'll be an absolute snot just so that you can gain the upper hand in an argument. And so you might reach a point where I and people like me get tired of your bullshit and walk away, and then you'll declare yourself the victor because you were the last person to make a post in my comment thread, but all you're doing is making the person on the other side want to punch yourself in the face.

Point #1, disagreement means that you have the right to punch someone in the face. Although, I can't understand why I'd want to punch myself in the face if I was winning an argument against you.

> If we were having this argument in real life and I was a more naturally violent person, I'd probably hit you, and then in your eyes I'd become the bully and you wouldn't be guilty of anything.

Point #2, debate with you and your gross stupid generalizations gives you the right to be violent, AND when you commit violence on someone else they should feel guilty because they deserve it. Their accusations of oppression and violence are unwarranted because they dared to piss you off with words.

> If you're guilty about being arrogant and annoying, then when you get teased and beaten up it's not causeless. You caused this. And the other side is more at fault then you are, but don't act like you're a saint.

Point #3, you believe that harming someone physically and emotionally is a valid response to verbal remarks, and that this violence is "not causeless". Doesn't matter what "causes" it, it's the wrong response, therefore the cause is irrelevant. Additionally, you believe that a person does not have the right to non-violently be as weird as they want. You think they should adapt their behavior to please the more violent members of our society.

>> Should battered wives admit that they are partially at fault because they annoyed their husbands?

> If you get beaten and do nothing about it, it's your fault that it goes on. See, two sides of the same struggle can both be guilty. The husband is more at fault, but if the battered wife acts like there's nothing she can do then she's to blame for it going on.

Point #4, victims very commonly are, by definition, unable to defend themselves. Either due to psychological controls, physical domination, or economic realities. What worries me the most about this statement is that you claim both sides are guilty, which implies that you feel some women deserve the beatings. If you knew anything about abused women and children you would know that no amount of changing stops the abuse. It is entirely the fault of the abuser because they are the one with the power, and they are the ones using it.

> Same with rape. If you get raped and do nothing about it, you're letting the other guy get away. The other guy isn't innocent. This isn't a blame game where it's the victim's fault entirely. But the victim does not exist in a vacuum, and the fact that the problem still exists suggests that in some way the victim is complicit about the problem.

Point #5, you believe that victims of rape did not do enough to defend themselves, and therefore are complicit and responsible for their lack of skills. Obviously your fictionalized and trivialized movie version of rape doesn't involve nearly as much violence as it really has.

> One day I might write something about how much bullies suck, but other people are already doing this. I don't like being generic.

And with this, in one single statement, you define how much of an idiot you are. If you don't like being generic, then why the hell were you nothing but a bag of gross generalizations in your stupid little essay?

[rorymarinich]

It's not worth it to get into a pissfest. I don't care enough. One comment:

If you don't like being generic, then why the hell were you nothing but a bag of gross generalizations in your stupid little essay?

It's not an essay. It's a blog post. I write fast and I write long and I publish everything that I write because I adhere to the belief that perhaps something I write will help somebody with something. I treat my blog like a blog. It's not a professional platform. The stuff I do in my life I keep entirely separate from all the things I write. If I ever got to the point where my sole source of fame was a web site with my name on it, I'd consider myself to have done a piss-poor job with my life. Same if the only thing I had going for my name was an ill-conceived rant clustered around by people who prefer rage to straight thinking.

As it is, I've gotten responses from people to this that've thanked me for writing it. That means that for 20 minutes' work it was time well-spent. My frustration doesn't come from disagreement. It comes from the fact that my post, which is about as good as 20 minutes' worth of quick typing can get you, got put on Hacker News, which is a place where intelligent people discuss meaningful things, when this is a piece that deals in overgeneralities.

When I wrote this piece, my thought wasn't "How can I capture the high school experience?" It was "What is it about this type of programmer that really annoys me?" I hit on my conclusion, which I still stand by, and wrote all the thoughts I've got on the subject matter, typed it quickly, and put it online. I thought it would get a handful of responses. Nothing big, because it's not big or at all important. I wrote two or three things yesterday that I think are better than this particular piece.

But you just ignored the post I just made to focus on my original post, which I've already apologized for. It's obvious that of the two people I said you might be, you're the latter. You're ranting at a mindset that I don't actually have just so that you can be Fucking Awesome Zed now that your blog's been toned down. If you really want to get pissed off at me for things I don't believe, you have every right. But I'm through with this. I expected better from you.

[zedshaw]

Well then, if you didn't believe these things, then why did you write them?

What amazes me about you is that, despite all this ranting against nerds you feel slighted you, you are actually behaving exactly the way you claim they do.

Let's pull from your twitter:

"It took all of a few hours for me to fall out of love with Hacker News. Nerds suck."

Alright, so you wrote an inflammatory piece, people on HN fairly directly, clearly, and politely (given the topic) responded, and you react by playing the victim.

I mean, do you even read what you write Rory? You basically just did exactly what you were claiming nerds do. You acted in a fowl mean spirited way, and then proceeded to get your ass kicked, and then claimed it was all the nerds fault for attacking you.

[rorymarinich]

Not at all! My ideas are entirely open for discourse. I don't think for an instant that what I wrote was immaculate and untouchable.

The reason I'm pissed off about this whole thing is that it's a bad essay. It's not worthy of pulling up and discussing. And this is a crowd that's never going to agree with the things I've said, and yet because it's Hacker News I find the need to argue anyway, knowing it's going nowhere, and so it's a huge time sink over a piece that doesn't deserve this attention.

The people politely responded? I wouldn't have gotten involved at all if that was the case. The reason I got an account was because I was being called things like a "sad, angry little man," and maybe I'm thin-skinned but stuff like that really pisses me off.

I know this is a defensive thing to say, but my Twitter post was half in jest. If I was pissed off at Hacker News, I wouldn't be here. Does that make me as bad as the people I was blaming? Probably. This isn't a personality quirk that I'm entirely at peace with; it's certainly still a part of me. I don't think I'm perfect and I'd never pretend to me. The fact that I write so much about these things is because they're parts of me I still don't like. I think I've been saying that from the start.

So if you want to fly off-the-handle at me for getting annoyed because a community I really like had a huge uproad over a piece of mine I really didn't care for, feel free. I probably deserve it; I act immature at times; I say things without thinking. You're older than I am and more well-known than I am and so by all means you're probably in the right. I'd just hope you would find better things to do with your time than squabble over a 3 AM ramble by a college freshman.

Now I noprocrast this account away, because I'm finished.