[nakkaya]

Park protest was just the tipping point. Current government has been slowly transitioning the country into Islamic rule. There were numerous things that preceded this, ban on abortion, ban on alcohol, jailing journalists/MPs, forcing religion on children, restrictions on TV basically all TV stations are owned by the government ( and not a single one mentioned the protests last night btw or the bombing that recently happened imagine no one reporting 9/11), and not to mention every recent protest met the same police brutality.

[afsina]

That is a gross exaggeration.

Ban on abortion was there before, is still there. My take, I support ban on abortion except some cases.

Ban on alcohol: They ban consumption in public places. it is becoming close to the Many Eurepean counties level. But not there yet.

Jailing journalists: Most of them involved with PKK (A terrorist organisation acknowledged by US and EU) directly. However, I agree the ones did not do action should have never been kept. There is a list: http://www.cnnturk.com/2012/guncel/03/07/tutuklu.gazeteciler...

Forcing Religion on children: If you mean mandatory religion and ethics lessons, it was there forever. This is bogus. My take, Governemnet should never deal with Religion.

Restrictions on TV: was there almost two decade ago.. RTUK was founded much before this government. Similar organisations exist in US and EU.

Recent events.. Well I blame government for being distasteful. Their architectural projects are far from beautiful. Also I dont understand their fetish on Ottoman-ism. There was no point resurrecting that stupid building on that park area. However, I also see protests more like opposition sides play ground. They find every opportunity to make things a show. That project was there for years and now it is time to protest? please. Also, a side note, if you stand on pressurized water like an idiot you fall and bleed.

Edited: Some wordings

[nakkaya]

Forcing Religion on children: No I mean Imams acting as guidance counsellors. Children refusing to take religion classes not given their grade cards.

Restrictions on TV: You do not /can not threaten to cancel a TV show as a prime minister because the show portrait a Ottoman sultan in a way he did not like (I do not watch tv I don't know the exact details but that’s basically what he said.) Still not a single government run TV station (basically all but two) said anything about the riots. How is that not a restriction?

Jailing journalists: I am talking about the ones that did not do anything but jailed. And half the army is in JAIL most not even formally accused for years and the people affiliated from the terrorist organization are called as witnesses imagine bin ladin as your star witness, and tell me this is not f.cked up.

[afsina]

Imams acting as guidance counsellors: If there is a demand, I see no problems. No body is forcing people to do that. Edit: Also it would be nice for Imams to give some consultation they are virtually doing nothing. Your second sentence sounds like a stupid rumor. Good citation please. Again, To me whole minister of religion can go away (which was founded by Ataturk).

TV: Well blame press for their cowardliness. Threatening means nothing. Things go court, you win or loose. If they had some balls, they would broadcast whatever they want. Wake up, press is a business. Plus note, I see a lot of coverage in gazettes. But not following TV for years, so cannot comment on that.

Jailing Journalists: Then you are talking about 10-20 people. It is a shame they are there. But would have been same in 1930s,40s,50s,60s,70s..

[nakkaya]

I'll begin by saying I do not believe in a personal god. Well Imams as guidance counsellors are extremely dangerous because unlike Christianity Islam never had the enlightenment period it is still stuck in middle ages. That's why you have people getting stoned in 2013 or girls getting gang raped and then executed for blasphemy search wikipedia for references. This is line of thinking these kids will be guided to and when you have 80k mosques vs 60k schools it will get out of hand really fast. Just the other day there was a protest where people literally kissed each other they were attacked by by people telling them this a muslim country and them, the religious youth won't let that.

You can not go to court that’s the problem. Checkout today’s papers for Turkey sabah vatan zaman etc. You don't need to know Turkish you won't see a single picture of the riots. Here is the cover of one of the biggest sabah [1].

[1]https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/94205...

[afsina]

Haven't you diverted the subject completely? You basically say you see islam as a big threat so people must be stopped doing anything according to it. I am just not in your way of thinking here and debate has become harder and harder.

About the press, I will tell again. Mass media is a business. Some goes with Government, some goes with opposition. People like to read-watch whatever satisfies their own bias/beliefs. Other newspapers you probably like to read (Vatan, Cumhuriyet etc) is no better than examples you gave. Whining does not change this fact.

Also, C'mon. I see plenty of coverage in all newspapers.

[zalew]

ok, but uhmm, I was asking about recent developments in Istanbul, not islamization.

btw abortion is forbidden in Poland, so is drinking on the street, and we have religion at primary school as well as other sorts of political and social influence by the church. and yeah, I know about how Turkey is leaning towards an islamic state and Ataturk is probably rolling in his grave, but your particular examples are not that radical to be honest. the Turk I talked to in Istanbul was a lecturer at an university and he told me they started replacing liberal principals with muslim ones, who obviously enforce their politics - penetrating the education system is serious stuff, not some beer ban (although I love beer).

[afsina]

Well, it is subtle really. I suggest you to read the comments with a grain of salt (Including mine and that lecturer). People are politically biased and especially bias is strong against the current government. Always look at the cases not general statements. As you compare with Poland, we are not that different indeed. Perhaps even less restrictive in cases.

I lived in Istanbul from 1990 to 2003 then in 2009. I can say today, overall it is a more modern city. But problems like traffic persist. Government are starting to restructure parts of the city destroying old housings. It is a good move but I am skeptical on their artistic eye.

Also business as usual, construction companies close to government are better supported. This situation never changes.

[zalew]

> Government are starting to restructure parts of the city destroying old housings. It is a good move but I am skeptical on their artistic eye.

I'd be careful. such 'improvements' cause resettling, thus spliting local communities, and such actions smell really bad, not only because it pumps up property prices but it also weakens the integrity of citizens.

booze/cigarette bans and abortion discussions are a great distractor. usually brought up when there is some shit to cover.

[afsina]

Indeed, but honestly, if you see some parts of Istanbul you would `really` want re-structuring. After the boom of local immigrants in 80's a mess of ghetto-like places covered the city. In the first major earthquake, major loss of life is expected because of them. So, I sympathize the effort, but economics and architecture of it will not please almost anybody except construction companies.

[nakkaya]

But this is not about Istanbul. It is not about a park or a shopping mall, you hear about Istanbul because that’s where 1/4 of the country lives in there are protests in Ankara Izmir Eskisehir Adana etc.

> but your particular examples are not that radical to be honest.

Every time I head that I like to remind people that Iran in the 70s was not much different than your average European country [1].

https://www.google.com/search?q=iran+70s&num=50&safe...

[jnbiche]

>Every time I head that I like to remind people that Iran in the 70s was not much different than your average European country [1].

Exactly. And even Kabul in Afghanistan was a very modern town and somewhat of a hippy mecca in the 1960s, with women in miniskirts, alcohol, etc.

I've spent a good bit of time in Turkey in the past 15 years. Modern Turks who don't wish to live under strict Islamic rule are very much on guard, since they know exactly where Erdogan and his type want the country to be (hint: it looks a lot closer to Iran than France). And while I criticized them for being "undemocratic" when I first visited Turkey in 1998, I wasn't the one who was going to have to permanently live under a strict Islamic government if Erdogan succeeded (and he was thwarted the first time). But comparing Turkey now to Turkey back then, he is succeeding now, little by little. And once his "reforms" are in place, there will be no going back.

[zalew]

I know the modern history of Iran and could easily talk you out of this line of argument because the circumstances are completely different, but I don't feel like drifting this thread into that direction.

[afsina]

Iran was the favorite 'scare' object used by mostly status-quo governments in modern Turkish history.