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by DanielBMarkham 4774 days ago
Ok, I'll take the bait.

I need to make a web page about standups and just start posting links to it. It's the same question time after time, and I keep thinking I'm going to forget part of the answer.

Standups are not meetings, at least not like I know them. Some teams have "standups" while doing a morning walk. Some meet at the coffee shop. Some have stopwatches and pigs and chickens and all sorts of other things. So what? Meetings usually involve sitting around, an agenda, a leader, a desired set of outcomes, and so forth. Standups really don't have any of that in the traditional sense. The output from a standup is just an informal agenda for the day. People meet, they discuss what's up, they break up and informally get together to do stuff. Standups are designed to prevent meetings, not be another one.

"Because it’s the information that’s great: the meetings are time-sinks."

No, it's about non-verbal communication and social interaction around common team problems. We've found that listing the 3 things helps do that. You might get the same effect with having each person act out an improv based on their feelings. I don't know. Give it a shot. But it's not about information. No. No. No, no no. Technology teams are made of people, not robots, and the work of everybody getting on the same page and keeping up is a human job full of social nuance, not the exchange of status information.

Later on we get here:

"...the only benefit to having a meeting is the face-to-face discussion that it allows for. Or, to put it another way: if you’re structuring your meeting around trying to eliminate anything that isn’t a two-minute “this is what I did/am doing/am having trouble with” update, why are you having a meeting at all?"

"Discussion" a much better word, but you're once again assuming that it's all some kind of information flow happening. The hardest part of working in technology teams is the social factor, not the bandwidth of information flow. Standups are about physically looking each other in the eye, figuring out where everybody is, and figuring out if you can help. It's not information, and it's really not discussion.

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2 comments

Unfortunately these daily meetings hardly ever work out that way -

In Scrum, for example, a daily project team meeting occurs. It’s called a daily scrum, or stand-up. The stand-up has guidelines, including limiting the meeting length to 15 minutes. My experience is that this never occurs – stand-ups usually run on for at least half an hour, during which I’m subjected to anecdotes, show-offs, excuses and, if I’m really unlucky, insinuations and blame. The worst stand-ups include managers – their presence turns any self-respecting stand-up into a status report.

Ref. http://www.wittenburg.co.uk/Entry.aspx?id=dce9dde8-d770-47c2...

You make an excellent point. Meetings are basically "team work breaks", where everyone gets to stop working but must remain together. Usually, team members discuss work, as that's always something these people have in common.

I'm contrasting this with the typical work break, where the team breaks into individuals for 10-15 minutes and everyone goes to a different location (water cooler, phone, bathroom, outdoors to smoke or stretch or walk).

Well, a lot of places that are "doing Agile" (whatever that means) are really just doing waterfall with some different rituals and labels. E.g., the 30-minute standing status meeting, which has nothing in common with the Extreme Programming stand-up meeting except that people are standing. (Sometimes. I've seen places where they do the daily "stand-up" sitting down.)

If you're working in a place with a screwed-up culture, a daily stand-up will make a number of the dysfunctions obvious. Removing the meetings doesn't make things better, it just makes the problems subtler, and therefore harder to fix.

Anyhow, I also see plenty of places that make this work well.

That just means you're not doing a good job running the meeting. If it's not working for you, change the things that aren't working so they are.

When you find you're getting away from something that was working... just go back to it. If there are anecdotes and side stories, develop a system where you can stop them.

If they run long, that's when a timer can be useful. Whether it's a series of 2 minute timers or a 15 minute one.

Don't slam an entire system because "it 'inevitably' stops working," just go fix it.

Standups are about physically looking each other in the eye, figuring out where everybody is, and figuring out if you can help. It's not information, and it's really not discussion.

I don't know... for most "here's what I did yesterday, here's what I'm doing today, here are my blockers" type meetings, I don't see that "look 'em in the eye" is that critical and certainly not on a daily basis. At least that's been my experience. Maybe if you're trying to read body language to see if somebody is more afraid than they're letting on, or to try and pick up if somebody is sandbagging or something. But that's why I advocate for a compromise of cutting the meatspace meetings back a little in frequency (but not necessarily eliminating them) and replacing some of the meetings with a technology solution.

The standups do have a cost, even the ones that stick to the short and sweet "nobody talks more than 2 minutes and we're out of here in 15" ones. For example, they still force a context switch, and depending on when in the day they are scheduled, they can really f%!# with somebody's ability to get into - and stay in - "flow state".

Context switching from what? If you're standup is first thing when you get into the office, your context switch is from a cup of coffee.

they can really f%!# with somebody's ability to get into - and stay in - "flow state"

I call BS. I can't for the life of me, find one consistent thing that can either get me into or get me out of a state of flow. It just happens. If you know the answer than I can create and scale the most perfect team of human engineers ever on this planet.

Context switching from what?

Depends on what time it's scheduled, and what time you come in. Could be anything.

If you're standup is first thing when you get into the office, your context switch is from a cup of coffee.

Absolutely. And if every member of your team arrives at the same time, and that time happens to coincide with "time to grab a cup of coffee then beat it to the room for the meeting" then sure, that makes sense. I haven't found that to be the case for most of the teams I've worked on.

I call BS. I can't for the life of me, find one consistent thing that can either get me into or get me out of a state of flow.

I can't identify one specific thing to get into flow state, but I can give you a laundry list of things that will break my "flow" once I get there. And having to go to a meeting is pretty much at the top of the list. shrug