Ask HN: What to do next in my career?

[doubter]

TL;DR: Where could I find a decent balance between paycheck/technology/career progression/work-life balance in London?

Hi fellow HN's,

I'll have to move to London soon, in the next months. I'm a senior software developer (8+ years) with some experience with Scala. I do some coding in my free time (small things and one side-project I expect to publish soon) and I collaborate in a small open-source project for the community of a framework. I'm married, so some family responsibilities here.

I've spent my career in boring Java shops, not as much innovation and usage of new technologies as I'd like. London offers a lot of choice in IT and a couple of talks I recently had made me doubt where to apply.

I'd like a company where I can use interesting state-of-the-art technology.

I'd like real career progression.

I'd like to have a decent life-work balance, don't mind some extra time but I run away from 60h/week as a standard or 20% travel, I have a wife.

I'd like decent pay as London is not cheap (I've already had a bad experience with an offer of £45k/year. I was expecting more like £55-£60 from what I've seen and my experience)

I'm not sure whhich kind of company should I apply to: financial related companies, big companies (like O2) or something smaller like Mind Candy?

I initially discarded financial as I assumed it would be long hours and legacy code (and I don't dig suits) but a recent oconversation mention that it may be normal hours (37.5h/week), very decent pay and benefits and interesting technology. Is that true?

On the other hand, big companies may have better benefits and may be easier to get a promotion, but they may use "boring" technology; while a smaller company may give less benefits but a better work environment, although I'd fear the pay check differences.

So: Where could I find a decent balance between paycheck/technology/career progression/work-life balance in London?

[RyanZAG]

You sound like you're centering a big decision in your life around language choice because it sounds like 'interesting technology'. I'd recommend skipping this - the technology isn't the important part, it's what you're doing with it.

Also, 'interesting technology' and '37.5h/week' are often directly at odds, especially in the financial industry. When you're using old, boring technology then you know it's been used to do what you're doing with it 100s of times before. This means no surprises, fairly easy estimations of work length, and most important for a consistent work week - lots of older developers and managers who are more interested in their next golf game than using their weekend to hack in new tech.

Basically what I'm getting at is that you need to decide your priorities - are you looking for an interesting job, or a stable job? Once you decide that, you can do some negotiation in interviews and culture fit to find where you want to work. Trying to optimize two things at once and still get hired is much tougher.

[doubter]

you have a point here, thanks :)

[Doches]

How about Palantir? They've got a London office, do interesting work (and would value your Java experience), and definitely pay well. They tend to work with government or financial clients; I'm not sure which the London folks focus on. Also, they have a pretty interesting mix of 'boring' (Java desktop apps & server infrastructure) and more modern (HTML5 & mobile clients) technologies. And they work with some clients that have...interesting problems.

[radicality]

You better be absolutely fantastic at algorithms if you are considering applying there :) I had a total of 7 interviews for the London office (3 in Palo Alto), and didn't too well in only one and ended up not getting an offer :( (Reapplying again soon...)

That being said, Palantir does some incredibly interesting things with varied clientele, and pays very well. You should definitely consider it.

[zerr]

Interesting. I got an impression that you can choose from different types of interviews - "Systems Design Interview" vs "Coding Interview" vs "Algorithms".

Did you apply for the position where Algorist was needed?

[radicality]

Well, you will kind of be tested on everything. I didn't even apply for the algorithmic/coding position of Software Engineering, but for Forward Deployed Engineering, for which you still have to be an engineer, code, and know your stuff very well, but you at least don't need the algorithmic knowledge of a TopCoder champion like you probably do for Software Engineering.

Whatever technical position you apply for, you definitely will be tested on systems, coding, and algorithms though.

[jomo_jomo]

We focus on both, and you should definitely consider applying.

[zerr]

For the interview, is it possible to select only "Systems Design Interview" and maybe "Coding Interview"?

For the appropriate positions of course.

[doubter]

I will, thanks for the comment :)

[doubter]

I may try, thanks for the info!

[kevinprince]

I am a senior developer at O2 in our labs team, drop me an email [e-mail] as we are hiring right now and its always good to chat.

[doubter]

I will, thanks!

[rtb]

How about Softwire? http://www.softwire.com

We tick all your boxes. Tech: We use interesting state-of-the-art and varied technology (I just finished a Rails project; I've done plenty of Java work at Softwire). Career: We are a small(ish) company growing fast so there is opportunity to define new roles and help us manage the transition into a larger company. Work/life: We don't work long hours; generally 38-40h/week. Pay: We pay very well (I don't think we can compete with some of the financial companies, of course).

Here's the official blurb from our recruitment manager:

Softwire is an extremely successful and vibrant software company offering bespoke software development services in a diverse range of sectors including media, security, online retail, travel, finance, publishing and insurance. We are currently looking for software developers with prior commercial experience to work in our offices based in London (NW5) and Bristol. We have placed in the top twenty of the Sunday Times Best Small Companies awards for the past three years running, and employees will tell you that this is a truly great - and probably unique - place to work. We combine a relaxed and friendly environment with a superb all-round package of benefits including:

- Varied and interesting work that will keep you on your toes day in, day out. - Great remuneration – all employees reap the rewards of our joint efforts, and a guaranteed 60% of profits is distributed to staff via annual bonus. - Flexible working time and conditions and no pressure to regularly work long hours. - Focused training, rapid personal development, and the opportunity to take on elevated levels of responsibility early in your career - Frequent social events and company outings.

Applicants must have demonstrated excellence in previous employment and possess impeccable academic records - usually straight As at A-level (or equivalent) and a good degree from a top university. You will need stand-out ability and enthusiasm in order to be successful.

[doubter]

Seems interesting, will check more about it, thanks!

[ig1]

It's very hard to speak generally about tech in finance, you're talking about a sector that employs tens of thousands of developers in London. Some of them are going to be working on boring legacy code and working long hours others are going to be working on cutting edge technology with sensible work-life balance.

Even within different teams at an investment bank you'll likely see huge variations in tech and hours worked.

Speaking more broadly you can find all the things you want in all three different types of company (small / big / finance), it's more about the culture of the specific firm.

Something you might want to consider is becoming a contractor and contracting at a few different places until you find somewhere you'd be comfortable becoming permie.

[landonia]

If I was you, I would think about Ontology. They are working on some really cool stuff related to be able to query multiple data sources as if they were one (much much more than this of course) and they are based in Kings Cross, London. I would imagine that their salaries reflect the kind of work that they do. If I was looking for a job similar to you I would be contacting them.

[doubter]

I'll check them, thanks!

[kamakazizuru]

I dont know much about london - but its rare and unlikely to find all of what you want in one place - there probably needs to be a compromise somewhere - the economy is not great and if you want something that pays well - but also doesnt want you working more than 40 hours a week (what job is only 40 hours a week any more other than checkout jobs at supermarkets or governement jobs?) - and will still promote you regularly enough (given that you're working 40 hours a week and not going over and above in your efforts). My concrete suggestion (because im not a big fan of just criticising without providing something concrete in return) would be to find a place that pays you well enough to look after your family - and lets you do something you like. IF you're doing something you like and are growing into newer areas - you'll thrive - and you'll be positioned to be exposed to further opportunities in those areas - one or the other of which might be that opportunity that ticks of all the boxes for you!

[rtb]

> (what job is only 40 hours a week any more other than checkout jobs at supermarkets or governement jobs?

I think this is an American perspective. Plenty of very good jobs in Europe and London in particular are 40 hour weeks. Plenty of research shows that people are more productive in the long term working 40h/wk.

[kamakazizuru]

I wonder - Im speaking from a German perspective :)

[doubter]

Yes, you got a point in here, I should focus a bit :)

[aaronbrethorst]

How about Google? http://www.google.com/about/jobs/locations/london/

If you didn't have to be in London, I'd highly recommend looking at Red Gate. They're, by far, the best company I've ever worked with: http://www.red-gate.com

[zerr]

I have an impression, the more senior you are the harder is to get hired by companies testing how good you remember some intricate [implementation] details from your CS courses.

Not to mention people who are self-taught...

[doubter]

Thanks for answering. As much as I'd love to work there, I already applied but after going all the way to on-site interviews, I wasn't hired.

My mistake as I applied to SRE and probably I should have gone for Software Developer instead, but too late for that now.

It has to be London, a pity as I read fantastic things about Red-Gate :)

[tensafefrogs]

They would probably let you reapply for the different position. You should try.

[doubter]

I asked and they said "try in 1.5 years" so... maybe then :)

[zerr]

Why it is too late? You mean they might have blacklisted you?

[doubter]

I hope not! Just that I already did and failed :(

[aaronbrethorst]

Bummer, sorry to hear.

[doubter]

nah, no worries, in a sense it was good. I noticed areas I need to improve and I'm happy to get to the on-site interview. If I got to that step I probably will be more confident with other interview processes.

[valdiorn]

> I initially discarded financial as I assumed it would be long hours and legacy code (and I don't dig suits) but a recent oconversation mention that it may be normal hours (37.5h/week), very decent pay and benefits and interesting technology. Is that true?

You can end up in finance doing SAP integration, spending most of your day thinking about the quickest way to get fired... or, you can end up in finance writing distributed real-time software for high-frequency trading, solving cutting edge technical problems while also raking in cash. The choice is yours.

(I mention this only because I once applied for a London based job. The description was almost exactly what I just wrote, with a salary of 150,000 GBP annually. Unfortunately I didn't get the job, but hey, worth a shot :)

[doubter]

I may need to check those offers in more detail, I just wonder what kind of life-work balance there will be :)

[michaelochurch]

Don't rule companies out because they're in the financial space. If you refuse to work for finance in, say, NYC, then you'll be unemployed often because that's a lot of what's out there.

Code quality problems aren't limited to finance and the people in finance are, on average, somewhat better than (at least) the NYC startup crowd. (There are good people in each, of course, and bad.)

I don't know the UK scene, but if you're certainly moving to London, you shouldn't rule out finance. Even though there are some terrible financial firms out there, I don't think that the whole set of financial companies is, as a category, any worse than other businesses (including startups). Those blue-sky R&D jobs (to which finance might compare poorly) are so rare and inaccessible to our generation that one can assume them not to exist in the corporate world (at least, not in the U.S.).

[jorgeortiz85]

    If you refuse to work for finance in, say, NYC, then
    you'll be unemployed often because that's a lot of what's
    out there.

Nonsense. NYC has a blossoming startup scene. Many prominent startups (Tumblr, Etsy, 10gen, Foursquare, Kickstarter, OkCupid, Mashable, BuzzFeed, SecondMarket, ZocDoc, Fab, Birchbox, Gilt, Seamless) are based in NYC, and many large tech companies (Google, Facebook, Twitter, eBay) have growing NYC offices.

List of tech companies in NYC: http://nytm.org/made-in-nyc/grid

Map of tech companies in NYC: http://mappedinny.com/

[michaelochurch]

The startups are there and they pay well for someone in his 20s, but by the time you're 35 and looking to raise a family, you've priced yourself out of non-financial jobs (if you need to stay in NYC) unless you're independently wealthy or extremely well-established.

This is much of why I think the future is elsewhere. Not NYC, not the Valley. It's going to be somewhere where it's possible for a normal 40-year-old to have a career as a programmer (not a manager who occasionally codes) because it genuinely takes decades to become great at this stuff. Most of these "social" apps could be built by anyone, but if I needed a medical device, or an extremely high-performance numeric library, I'd rather the code be written by a seasoned gray-haired guy who understands technology at a deep level than by the sorts of people in charge at a lot of the startups where I've worked.

[ig1]

The median household income in NYC is $48,631, as an average software developer at an average startup you'll already be earning significantly more than most families.

Sure if you work in finance you can earn more, but it's about funding a more lavish life-style than a necessity. Pretending anything else is insulting to the millions of families who are living on less.

[jorgeortiz85]

Many people raise families on programmer salaries at large tech companies (Google, Facebook, Microsoft, Yahoo, eBay, etc).

Do startups generally pay below market? Yes. Is finance even more lucrative? Yes. But you certainly won't be "unemployed", as you suggested, if you don't work in finance.

[doubter]

I'm 31 so this is kind of my concern too. I can see amazing startups I'd love to work at, but probably the work schedule and the pay wouldn't match the needs of a family in London.

[nwp]

As a guy coming up on 40 this is my number one concern.

[wellboy]

Stop making career and start making a life. (Finally try that idea you always wanted to do)

Do that for 2 months and then get a contracting job where you charge £60/h if you need money.

[doubter]

Well, I'd like to believe career and life can both be achieved, it's all just a matter of managing yourself. That said, contractor life doesn't appeal to me too much right now. But thanks for the comment :)