[thejsjunky]

As a musician when I purchase a synthesizer, I am buying the circuit. The enclosure/build quality/etc is secondary, though obviously an important consideration.

If someone tells me I am buying a "handmade synthesizer" in addition to it being largely assembled by hand I would assume it contains a novel circuit design (as in, not an exact copy of someone else's design) unless I was explicitly told otherwise. In this case I would consider it to be "from a kit" in that he's taken a freely available plan and done the equivalent of assembling a kit for it.

Between the fact that the design is not novel, and the fact that it's not clear precisely how much of the actual assembly he is doing I think it's fair for Etsy to raise the issue.

I think you might be misunderstanding what the issue is. It's not that he's charging too much for his services or something - the amount of work he puts into it is irrelevant. I could spend quite a lot of time tracking down obscure/rare records from the past 10 years; travelling the country, digging in record shops, etc. That doesn't mean it would be appropriate to sell them on Etsy - it's not Ebay.

Personally I'm ok with such things being on Etsy. As long as it's labelled as an assembled kit or from someone else's design. I would even consider purchasing it. I don't think it's quite clear cut though and I think Etsy should be allowed leeway in deciding what they think is appropriate for their marketplace.

[geg3]

> As a musician when I purchase a synthesizer, I am buying the circuit. The enclosure/build quality/etc is secondary, though obviously an important consideration.

As both a musician and synth designer, I've always put the sound and user interface above all else. If you ever get the chance to play around with an amateur reproduction of a classic circuit you'll know that factors other than the circuit diagram contribute heavily to the final sound.

> If someone tells me I am buying a "handmade synthesizer" in addition to it being largely assembled by hand I would assume it contains a novel circuit design (as in, not an exact copy of someone else's design) unless I was explicitly told otherwise.

This is an unfair assumption. Unless you're buying "handmade" synth modules direct from Ken Stone, Dave Smith, Bob Moog, or one of maybe a baker's dozen others, you're buying an outright copy or hack of multiple circuits. Maybe I'd feel kinda ripped off if Dave Smith sold me a "handmade" AX-60 clone (not his design after all)... or, no wait, that would be a dream come true.

The level of originality being demanded here is unreasonable. Imagine describing to a lay-person how a new library fit like a glove and saved you a couple thousand lines of code, only to have that person balk at your unoriginal, potentially dishonest work. That's what this thread reads like.

[thejsjunky]

> As both a musician and synth designer, I've always put the sound and user interface above all else.

You're talking about something slightly different: you're talking about what you use to evaluate the quality of a thing. I'm talking about what is the thing that you are purchasing. There is some overlap clearly; when you buy a synth you want a good one...but what it ultimately comes down to is you are purchasing the circuit.

The point is that in contrast to something like a lamp -with things like synthesizers the actual implementation is important and is in fact what you are purchasing -you are purchasing an analog synth of such and such type. Whereas with a lamp after a certain base level of functionality, you're purchasing entirely based on appearance.

> The level of originality being demanded here is unreasonable

I think you are similarly misunderstanding the issue. I think what the guy in the OP is trying to do in terms of a business is perfectly fine (with the condition that they are open about the fact that they are using someone else's design).

I also think that Etsy is trying to build a certain kind of marketplace...one for artists or crafts people. I think it's fair to question whether this counts as that.

If you're just taking a schematic from somewhere then paying someone to print the board, have them mount the components listed in the schematic, have them solder them, etc....which you then take and stick into an enclosure and wire the up... I just don't think that qualifies. I think you have a perfect right to sell that to people (heck, I'd buy it), I'm just not sure if it belongs on Etsy.

The problem is there's a lot of things to consider. How was he describing his products, was it accurate? How much of the assembling was he doing? Did he have any input into the design?

If on the other hand, he was doing the majority of the assembly, modifying the design, and/or he was using some creativity in sourcing parts (say, tracking down vintage diodes or something)...then I think it does qualify and should be allowed on Etsy.

> Imagine describing to a lay-person how a new library fit like a glove and saved you a couple thousand lines of code, only to have that person balk at your unoriginal, potentially dishonest work.

Right, this is a good analogy and I think you should think about it more. Just like the issue at hand, your analogy has a lot of nuance and things that must be considered.

What exactly was I hired for. If I was hired to write a program to compress a folder of images, sure it makes sense to just throw zlib or something in there and call it a day. That's fine. What though if I bill it as if I had written my own lib? What if I was hired to write a new compression library? Clearly in that case it's not ok to just give them zlib and charge for the work. What if I add a nice wrapper around it though, which adds utility...then it might become ok again since I am adding value. What if I translate zlib to another (programming) language then bill them? That might be ok in some situations, and others not.

It all depends.

What it comes down to is I think it's totally fair for Etsy to question it. It's enough in the "gray area" for me. It also seems the guy has not yet provided enough information to push it out of the "gray area".

I'd like to see stuff like this sold on Etsy, but it depends on the specifics.

[pistacchioso]

> As a musician when I purchase a synthesizer, I am buying the circuit. The enclosure/build quality/etc is secondary, though obviously an important consideration.

The enclosure may be of secondary importance to you as a musician, but from a "hand making" point of view, when I buy a synth, I'm buying many hours of work that went into making a solid, good-looking case around the circuit, applying filters and responsive knobs and patches and all sort of inputs and outputs and maybe a keyboard and other kind of controllers.

If we justify that Etsy is entitled to not consider handcraft a hand made synth because the main source of sound may not have been engineered by the seller, tomorrow they can as well ask any seller of knitted wool sweaters to provide pictures of them shearing those sheep whose wool has been used because users say:

"As a wool sweaters aficionado when I buy a sweater, I am buying the wool"

[illuminate]

"I could spend quite a lot of time tracking down obscure/rare records from the past 10 years; travelling the country, digging in record shops, etc. That doesn't mean it would be appropriate to sell them on Etsy - it's not Ebay"

Vintage fashion is a big seller on Etsy, so your analogy would actually be appropriate.