[just_hobbyst]

Man, you really are confused! If a country is serious about national defence then it really needs universal health care, because it needs lots of healthy soldiers. Soviet Russia did a lot to make sure there was at least basic medical care available to everyone for exactly this reason - they needed millions of soldiers! Finland is doing the right thing when it takes care for it's citizens.

Also, news flash for you: socialism in Russia ended some 20 years ago. Now they have a pretty ruthless form of capitalism in there.

When I read what you have to say about Poland I start to think you are from some kind of alternative universe. It's just bizarre.

[berntb]

I'd guess the Polish rant is based on that Soviet really did support the anti-nuclear weapon movement, and so on.

Seing conspiracy theories like those, I am strengthened in the belief that the US extreme left and right are equally crazy. In Europe we mostly see the Chomsky brigade, some variation would make it less irritating.

[arethuza]

That rant also ignores the fact that after the 1930s (and particularly after the Spanish Civil War) it was clear that the Soviets regarded any "socialists" who weren't under their direct control as more of a threat than their apparent enemies. Most socialists in Western Europe (e.g. the UK Labour Party) were more afraid of the Soviets than those on the political right.

[berntb]

In e.g. Sweden, the communists stooped being Stalinists when Moscow told them that Stalin was bad... They did start to critizise the Eastern block dictators early... about 1990!

(There were also anarchists etc, but in general the non-communist extreme left-wingers were few before ~1968, when they got more numerous and varied).

Also, I remember reading surprise after 1989 on how much control Soviet had over the West European communist parties. E.g. that the Italian communist party had such an accomodating attitude by order (Soviet wanted to get a de facto split in Western/Eastern Europe.)

[arethuza]

I don't know about anywhere else but in the UK there was a very large "socialist" party in Labour and tiny "communist" parties that never really had much power.

[berntb]

I thought Labor was ~ Social Democrat? Maybe shocking to right wing crazies, but hardly _Socialist_ in a modern use of the language?

(But OK, even I know that Labor have changed a lot over the last 50-60 years.)

[arethuza]

I guess it depends what you mean by "socialist" - Labour created the NHS and nationalised some of the key heavy industries of the time (coal, steel, electricity):

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/labour_party_nationalis...

Turns out that the NHS was a good idea and the nationalising of industries was a bad idea!

Of course, when Labour re-invented itself in the 1990s as "New Labour" they pretty much became "Conservative-Lite" - I'm still not sure what values they actually have.

[LekkoscPiwa]

so, watching a lot of KGB-TV, ops sorry RussiaTV lately? I know plenty of Americans watch only this for news.

Don't tell me it's not genius, please. Russia banned recently all outside world financed NWOs from their country, but they air their propaganda in the US day and night. You don't see that? First divide the country. Find original dividing factor. Whatever it is as long as ti exists. I.e. Tea Party in the US which in fact has been a genuine effort to make the Republic better. Then invest millions, hundreds of millions in them. In their NWOs, show them on your TV, support their papers, bloggers, activists. See how much trouble you're creating in the country without even firing a single bullet? They can and do pull it off all the time.

You think Finland is any different? The whole of Russia belongs to KGB and is governed by it. And don't take my word for this, these are almost exact words of the US Ambassador in Moscow that leaked via wikileaks.

Western Europeans are somehow always so naive in the face of threat. Whether it was Hitler or Stalin, they voted, they believed in it. Stop being so blatantly naive, ok?