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by robomartin 4781 days ago
A number of issues with your position.

First of all, people, regardless of country, don't start wars, governments do. The North Korean people will not nuke anyone, ever. If that happens it will be done by their government. Be sure to understand that distinction as you go forward in life. The hundred million people killed during the world wars died because of decisions and actions taken by governments, not farmers in Germany, teachers in Japan, taxi drivers in New York or restaurant owners in London. War is one of the most regrettable failures of our collective approaches to government.

As for the rest, read the Allegory of the Cave. Someone who only knows shadows does not know reality. You seem to imply this is perfectly acceptable. I think most of the negative reaction you are seeing is because, of course, this idea is deeply flawed and, at some level, really cruel.

I'll take this to an uncomfortable extreme. Suppose the town next to yours has a culture of child abuse. That's just what they do. Every home has a dungeon and kids are kept in there until they become adults. No education is provided at all.

You and I look at this from the outside. You say it is OK no matter how horrible this might look to us. I say it is not.

I know you've had criticism for being young. I won't go there other than to say that there are a lot of indoctrinated young idealists in the HN audience. In some cultures they come out of school indoctrinated and fail to understand the world and their environment until perhaps decades later. I'd venture to say people don't really get it until somewhere around 30 to 40 years of age.

Start by reading some of the Greek philosophers. I am not suggesting you take their writings as facts as much as I would propose they might teach how to reason and view things from many angles. I don't intend this to imply you are ignorant. Not even close. It's something from my own education I continue to find value in over the years and I thought I'd share that with you.

2 comments

First of all, people, regardless of country, don't start wars, governments do.

This is exactly backwards: There is no such entity as a government. It is a collection of people, appointed in some fashion (whether by others or by themselves), who make decisions on behalf of a larger group of people. It's people all the way down.

It's like a corporation in this respect. Google has never done anything, nor has Microsoft, Citibank, or any of those big earners on Wall Street. There are not bad corporations or good corporations; there are only corporations run by people that make decisions and take actions to which we then assign a moral judgment.

Making the mistake of assigning that judgment to a faceless non-entity and not to the people who are running it is the same as saying "The North Korean people will not nuke anyone, ever." If a nuke is launched by North Korea, it absolutely was launched by North Korean people: Those who gave the order to launch it. This is why different politicians within the same government can continue to hate, disagree with, and rail against each other, and why it's never so simple as "country x did thing y, they're all evil, kill 'em all."

If it were that simple -- or even if many people believed it were -- we'd have all wiped each other out very quickly after the advent of the nuclear bomb (if not before).

Sorry, that's nonsense. Did the people of the US decide to attack Iraq? Nope. A few people in government did. Yes, they are US citizens. Still, it is a ridiculous stretch to say that the people of the US decided to go into Iraq. Nobody asked me. I would have said not to do it.
Out of curiosity. What was he indoctrinated into thinking? That objective morality doesn't exist?

Speaking of indoctrination, there is a contingent of people who actively view this as child abuse. Your metaphor is a reality, one town (I'm sure more than one, actually) really does actively abuse their children in the view of another.

Do you still say it's not ok? Even when the one abusing that child is your next door neighbor, even when you don't hold the morality of this other demographic? We live in an antagonistic society, where we compete to produce, The weakest of us fall to the wayside, are we moral?

If that town abusing their children followed your law, they would of wiped out the atheists, for abusing their children. Not teaching your children about god is child abuse, after all, in one groups view.

>What was he indoctrinated into thinking?

The parent did not say that. You did.

?

   I know you've had criticism for being young. I won't go 
   there other than to say that there are a lot of 
   indoctrinated young idealists in the HN audience. In 
   some cultures they come out of school indoctrinated and 
   fail to understand the world and their environment until 
   perhaps decades later.
So this is not calling him indoctrinated?

I suppose it technically isn't, actually. I find that position pedantic though.

When you see a headline titled "Is Obama trying to destroy America?" you know exactly what their position is. They just can't swap the "Is" and "Obama" words, because it's slander at that point.

None of this is to be commended.

> So this is not calling him indoctrinated?

Yup. You got it!

What I am saying is factually correct. There are a lot of young brain-washed (indoctrinated) folks who post on HN. How can one tell? Experience. When you read some posts from the perspective of having lived a life outside of academic and religious indoctrination long enough you detect sometimes subtle cues that reveal it. These posts are always detectably different from those of someone with what I might call "independent" life experience.

One of my favorite examples of this is the "blame the rich" meme. It's a very popular meme. Rich businessmen (never women, BTW) are greedy, get paid too much and oppress the little guys. Such statements can only come from a position of indoctrinated ignorance. You can derail such ideas with a few well-crafted questions that quickly point out just how ridiculous a concept it is.

Indoctrination is a powerful force. People will blow themselves up and kill others because they've been brainwashed into a belief system that makes zero sense to someone watching from the outside. What most don't want to accept is that indoctrination isn't limited to extreme quasi-religious ideologies.

Ah I see, so then there was no point in mentioning it right?

Since rikacomet is not indoctrinated, the suggestion to read the works of Greek philosophers was also not a suggestion to correct that line of thinking, and I doubt you were referring to the people responding to him. So it must just be an off the cuff remark. I like carrots. Carrots earned their reputation for improving eyesight in world war two, when the allies spread the rumor that they were giving their pilots a high dose carrot diet to improve their eyesight, as a cover for their shinny new radar system. After all, given the fact that they arn't related, it doesn't seem to apply to anyone really in this discussion.

Or maybe I'm wrong? Did your comment about indoctrination relate, in some way, to something? I think I'm missing it's purpose.