[freshhawk]

Engineers have this system already and have had it forever. In Canada (the one I'm familiar with) it is the P.Eng (Professional Engineer) license.

I think the system should be licensing and involve losing that license if you commit an ethics violation.

There would be unlicensed developers of course, but connecting the incentive to not do unethical things with the incentive to be part of the elite class in your profession has worked pretty damn well for Engineers, Doctors and Lawyers.

[sounds]

This is an important sticking point. Maybe a Professional Engineering certification isn't the solution, but let's not get hung up here.

Example: P.E. certified people should have no problem creating weapons systems for a nation-state at war. Does that make it ethical? Depends on who writes the history books afterward.

Example: P.E. certified people might refuse to participate in experimental, unorthodox methods. But especially in software these often become the runaway successes.

In other words _you_ have to own _your_ personal ethics. You won't be able to point and say "I was just following orders!" The pointy-haired boss who gave the orders isn't going to be able to exonerate you of the guilt. Often he doesn't even congratulate you for "doing the right thing." Maybe he'll fire you or give you a bonus – or join you in prison! – but my point is: it's orthogonal to your personal ethics.

Ethics may sometimes appear to conflict with rapid progress. That doesn't necessarily imply an existential crisis, just a lack of forethought. So many ethical problems arise due to overflowing ignorance / lack of forethought combined with a sudden rash of malice (when it comes time to pay the piper). Ethics are a way of expressing realities about the world that conflict with the general Adam Smithian "enlightened self-interest." I view ethics as meta-enlightened self interest – like how Apple is more than just industry-leading, they carved new niches where no one thought to go.

Engineers (software engineers or otherwise) have untangled things much more complicated than this. It's only overwhelming if it blows up in your face.

Path seems like a classic case of all of the above.

[Synthpixel]

Your _personal_ ethics can easily get you _fired_.

[wiml]

Of course. The _whole point_ of _any_ ethical or moral principle is that it directs you to do things that are right even at some possible cost to yourself.

If you believe that standing up for your strongly-held beliefs will get you fired, you should look for a new job _now_. Sure, that incurs the trouble and uncertainty of a job switch, and possibly a pay cut (though perhaps less of that than you think). But if it means that you don't have to be ashamed of what you do all day --- it's generally worth it.

[duncan_bayne]

> has worked pretty damn well for Engineers, Doctors and Lawyers.

... and has pretty much screwed over the rest of society, at least in the latter two cases. The legal and medical cartels have done incredible harm to their customers over the years.

See http://mises.org/freemarket_detail.aspx?control=51 (law) and http://mises.org/daily/4276 (medicine) for details.

[thesz]

I have to say that your link about medicine is short of laughble.

Even if there was some bad "allopathy" back in the day, there is more bad eclictics and homeopathy right now. And to practice medicine you have to understand scientific method, especially falsifability.

And I also have to say that the "free market" idea isn't falsifable. "Let it to free market" rarely works.

[freshhawk]

Parts of the "free market" idea are falsifiable.

They assume rational actors (people making decisions based on their own self interest). That's been falsified (when applied to humans).

Most variations of the efficient market hypothesis have been disproved as well, for the same reasons:

Humans have cognitive biases and other types of irrational behaviour.

But anyone linking to mises.org is probably a follower of the church of the free market. And they generally strongly disagree with the idea that humans have cognitive biases (because their faith requires it not to be true).

I'm glad someone else laughed at the pro-homeopathy / conspiracy theory around the history of snake oil salesmen content on there.

[duncan_bayne]

> They assume rational actors (people making decisions based

> on their own self interest).

That's untrue of some schools of economics that advocate free markets, e.g. Austrian.

> But anyone linking to mises.org is probably a follower of

> the church of the free market. And they generally

> strongly disagree with the idea that humans have

> cognitive biases (because their faith requires it not to

> be true).

That's an ... interesting ... claim. Care to justify it?

[freshhawk]

> That's untrue of some schools of economics that advocate free markets, e.g. Austrian.

I took the term "free market 'idea'" to be specifically talking about those for which it's true. That seemed to be the point, and the site linked to was Austrian. Both articles make the assumptions in question about the ability to self-regulate that assumes rational actors. So yes, my statement was not true of all schools, but it seemed like those types of Austrians were not in the scope of the discussion.

> That's an ... interesting ... claim. Care to justify it?

Subjective opinion. I read economics news and neuroscience news because it's interesting. Comment threads, especially here, frequently have two types of subjects that start the vocal libertarians arguing and proclaiming: government regulation and the phrase "humans are irrational".

[jfim]

This may vary by province, but our provincial engineering board will not stand up for you if you get fired due to upholding your code of ethics (they even told us so in ethics class).

Furthermore, whistleblowers are often unemployed for extended periods of time, due to corporations not wanting to hire them as they could be a liability.